 The Minority Report |
jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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audi-
Perhaps its a little bit like the
She Loves You Beatle fans vs the
All you need is Love Beatle fans vs the
Love No 9 Beatle fans vs the
Silly little Love Beatle fans
Me?- I like it all- I'm a beatle fan.
and when it comes to the best acros of all....
TST/DA/SE/LD...
I like it all.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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07-15-2004 13:51 |
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carl 
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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I'd mention once more how overrated Sgt. Pepper is, IMHO, but as it's a heavy influence on the music here it might cast undue aspersions and adversely affect sales.... 
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07-15-2004 14:04 |
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jeffrey k.
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 06-28-2002
Posts: 386
Location: downers grove illinois
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One thing that always cracks me up is when a few people comment sideways about a project, there are always people who will take it upon themselves to speak for "the fans" and what they want and what would have been or would be better in the future. As if Mike, Terry, and Derri are at home scribbling notes on legal pads in hopes of "getting it right" next time! This Mutt thing is a really good example. Like 4 or 5 people on the boards have commented and have expressed opinions that this release isn't their favorite....not even bad reviews really. But inevitably you will get people who will now register that as "the fans" don't really like Mutt! It's like 4 or 5 people who just said they didn't like certain parts of it, and now we have polls about "what the band should do next"...because of course, your $15 entitles you to an armchair management position within the organization.
(that last part is a joke btw....)
I saw this with "Via Chicago" too. People were reportedly pretty happy with the DVD, and posting messages to that effect, and then Peter Chattaway opened his big yap and posted his thoughts (it would seem) anywhere and everywhere he could get an audience. In all honesty, after that crap, sales DID drop, but the stupid thing is that it was ONE very vocal guy and suddenly I'm getting emails from people telling me "they still like the DVD" and "not to feel bad". Still like it? Does that mean that his negative comments could have swayed an otherwise happy fan into not liking it? Don't feel bad? I didn't. It was all very irritating, and really confusing as to what his deal was, but it was ONE guy. It wasn't hundreds of people disliking the DVD, and yet within the past 3 weeks I have met fans at shows who come up to me and comment on Peter's comments from a year ago and tell me not to feel bad. It's ridiculous. I DON'T feel bad. I'm really proud of the DVD and wouldn't change a thing even if I could. But the impression seems to be that the DVD wasn't all that well received and the reviews were mixed. And the reality is, of the 50 review copies we had serviced, we only had 2 actual reviews...one was glowing from a DVD review site in the UK, and the other was a weird review from the Phantom Tollbooth that basically mirrored Peter's gripes point for point, but then gave us like 4 out of 5 stars! (Go figure.)
So yeah, I think the "drivel" can effect sales and peoples impressions of how something is received. But look, everyone has a right to an opinion....I just think it's how you voice it I suppose.
later,
jeffrey k.
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"Life handed us a paycheck, we said 'we worked harder than this!'" - Modest Mouse
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07-15-2004 14:08 |
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Joey T.
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 03-13-2002
Posts: 7,777
Location: you can't fire me, 'cuz i quit! - Kurt Cobain....
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i remember years ago when i used to watch siskel and ebert... the first batman had just came out.....
roger ebert ranted and raved about what a great movie this was and how awesome the special effects were... then gene siske came on and said he thought it sucked basically...
ebert comes back and says i think you totally missed it on this one..maybe you should see the movie again? siskel then says well maybe i'm not entitled to my opinion and there only needs to be one of us here...... 
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07-15-2004 14:36 |
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sprinklerhead
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 12-11-2003
Posts: 1,290
Location: Austin, TX
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Joey T.
i remember years ago when i used to watch siskel and ebert... the first batman had just came out.....
roger ebert ranted and raved about what a great movie this was and how awesome the special effects were... then gene siske came on and said he thought it sucked basically...
ebert comes back and says i think you totally missed it on this one..maybe you should see the movie again? siskel then says well maybe i'm not entitled to my opinion and there only needs to be one of us here......
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So, you think Ebert killed Siskel to get him off the show?
__________________
I had another dream about lions at the door
They weren't half as frightening as they were before
But I'm thinking about eternity
And I'm wondering where the lions are...
I'm wondering where the lions are...
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07-15-2004 14:40 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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First of all, I'm feeling better now.
Seriously, any observations re: the product itself are zero reflection on you and the hump you bust (although I understand yr fates are intertwined), and I don't anyone here has called the product inferior to begin with. The Dogs DVD is great, and Mutt is pretty much what I expected (granted, I was never excited by the concept to begin with -- and I mean, three-quarters of The Choir is on this thing -- did anyone REALLY think that I, of all people, would be blown away by it?
But I laid down my money and got a dozen others to do the same to their own innocent delight, so I feel I've offset the damage for any hearts I may have irrevocably hardened by riding shotgun for Jev here.
).
Also, I think it's fair to say there's a difference between the spirited banter on a fan board and a singular public review by a so-called "expert." (Gad, at least I HOPE there is, or I could've just stayed on the DADL.
Like I would've.) Peter shouldn't feel bad for being a freakin' idiot either, I guess.
I don't know what I'm saying. I just get my dander up when I lay it out & the "how dare you say what you think" responses come back (not referring to yr post above at all), and then I take a deep breath when I realize that everyone wasn't raised in Jersey and therefore have these strange etiquette customs.
I guess "Keep up the good work" sums it up as good as anything, and doesn't begin to say it either.
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07-15-2004 14:46 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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| quote: |
Originally posted by carl
I'd mention once more how overrated Sgt. Pepper is, IMHO, but as it's a heavy influence on the music here it might cast undue aspersions and adversely affect sales....
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zzzzzzz............hmmm..wha? was someone talking?
I know .......... that Rolling Stone Rag is always wrong..I mean - how bout the way they passed up iDEoLA?
sheesh.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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07-15-2004 14:50 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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It's funny.... I've been spending scads of time defending Terry & Mark Heard (and to a lesser degree, the 7s) on the Tonio K. list lately, and here I'm defending MYSELF instead for talking about the same guys.
(Well actually, I just can't say anything bad about Mike; he'll just beat me to it anyway.
)
I guess it's all a matter of what bar the collective psyche at the time is using....
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07-15-2004 14:55 |
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bereal
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 03-08-2004
Posts: 11,824
Location: "I still love Jesus, I'm just afraid of His followers." DwDunphy
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Come on guys! Whether Mutt is your favorite or your not so favorite, it is from Terry's "other" band, the one he's been working the most here of late, and we need to be supporting Uncle Terry (unless he just goes off the deep end and does some CCM crap!). I think history will show us that when he puts out an album that is not your favorite, if you are patient, another will come along that you may really like.
Even when we don't like something, we should at least make that point in our "negative review" so that some unsuspecting visitor to this board doesn't think, "man, these guys must really suck if the fans are talking about them that way".
btw, I think Mutt is great! 
(as if you all haven't heard me say that before)
__________________
Holy God break me, Holy Lord take me
Lay your crushing hand, Your mighty hand, On me gently
Your crushing hand, Your mighty hand, On me gently
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07-15-2004 14:59 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
One thing that always cracks me up is when a few people comment sideways about a project, there are always people who will take it upon themselves to speak for "the fans" and what they want and what would have been or would be better in the future. As if Mike, Terry, and Derri are at home scribbling notes on legal pads in hopes of "getting it right" next time! This Mutt thing is a really good example. Like 4 or 5 people on the boards have commented and have expressed opinions that this release isn't their favorite....not even bad reviews really. But inevitably you will get people who will now register that as "the fans" don't really like Mutt! It's like 4 or 5 people who just said they didn't like certain parts of it, and now we have polls about "what the band should do next"...because of course, your $15 entitles you to an armchair management position within the organization.
(that last part is a joke btw....)
I saw this with "Via Chicago" too. People were reportedly pretty happy with the DVD, and posting messages to that effect, and then Peter Chattaway opened his big yap and posted his thoughts (it would seem) anywhere and everywhere he could get an audience. In all honesty, after that crap, sales DID drop, but the stupid thing is that it was ONE very vocal guy and suddenly I'm getting emails from people telling me "they still like the DVD" and "not to feel bad". Still like it? Does that mean that his negative comments could have swayed an otherwise happy fan into not liking it? Don't feel bad? I didn't. It was all very irritating, and really confusing as to what his deal was, but it was ONE guy. It wasn't hundreds of people disliking the DVD, and yet within the past 3 weeks I have met fans at shows who come up to me and comment on Peter's comments from a year ago and tell me not to feel bad. It's ridiculous. I DON'T feel bad. I'm really proud of the DVD and wouldn't change a thing even if I could. But the impression seems to be that the DVD wasn't all that well received and the reviews were mixed. And the reality is, of the 50 review copies we had serviced, we only had 2 actual reviews...one was glowing from a DVD review site in the UK, and the other was a weird review from the Phantom Tollbooth that basically mirrored Peter's gripes point for point, but then gave us like 4 out of 5 stars! (Go figure.)
So yeah, I think the "drivel" can effect sales and peoples impressions of how something is received. But look, everyone has a right to an opinion....I just think it's how you voice it I suppose.
later,
jeffrey k. |
EXCELLENT POST! Sounds like the whole 1 bad apple spoils the bunch thing. 
Thanks for all you have done and continue to do for the band!
audis, in light of this sales-busting experience, perhaps moving some of these "fan's fan" type "reviews" to the dump pronto (including my stuff) may be in order.
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Got a few miles left ...
Make sure you have heard a Kind Word! 
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07-15-2004 15:01 |
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Captain Pedantic
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 12-18-2002
Posts: 2,686
Location: "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence." - Vyvian - The Young Ones
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
I saw this with "Via Chicago" too. People were reportedly pretty happy with the DVD, and posting messages to that effect, and then Peter Chattaway opened his big yap and posted his thoughts (it would seem) anywhere and everywhere he could get an audience. In all honesty, after that crap, sales DID drop, |
Well it could be Peter's one comment that dropped sales.... or.... it could be the fact that by the time Peter got his, watched it and posted his comments most of the people who were going to buy had already bought it. You know how rabid we are when a new release comes out, lot's of people buying it in the first few minutes, hours and days. It could be Peter or it could be the sales cycle. After Peters comment and resultant hoo-hah it happened to be the point where all that was left where the people who could wait a bit.
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Seek Justice
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07-15-2004 15:50 |
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Joey T.
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 03-13-2002
Posts: 7,777
Location: you can't fire me, 'cuz i quit! - Kurt Cobain....
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| quote: |
Originally posted by sprinklerhead
| quote: |
Originally posted by Joey T.
i remember years ago when i used to watch siskel and ebert... the first batman had just came out.....
roger ebert ranted and raved about what a great movie this was and how awesome the special effects were... then gene siske came on and said he thought it sucked basically...
ebert comes back and says i think you totally missed it on this one..maybe you should see the movie again? siskel then says well maybe i'm not entitled to my opinion and there only needs to be one of us here......
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So, you think Ebert killed Siskel to get him off the show? |
that's what the minority report said..... 
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07-15-2004 16:08 |
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jeffrey k.
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 06-28-2002
Posts: 386
Location: downers grove illinois
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Captain Pedantic
| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
I saw this with "Via Chicago" too. People were reportedly pretty happy with the DVD, and posting messages to that effect, and then Peter Chattaway opened his big yap and posted his thoughts (it would seem) anywhere and everywhere he could get an audience. In all honesty, after that crap, sales DID drop, |
Well it could be Peter's one comment that dropped sales.... or.... it could be the fact that by the time Peter got his, watched it and posted his comments most of the people who were going to buy had already bought it. You know how rabid we are when a new release comes out, lot's of people buying it in the first few minutes, hours and days. It could be Peter or it could be the sales cycle. After Peters comment and resultant hoo-hah it happened to be the point where all that was left where the people who could wait a bit. |
I figured someone would have to say this....and NO...that isn't what happened. If there was only a 13 day window of sales to the fan-base I'd have agree with you on maybe it being part of a "sales cycle"....but it wasn't. (13 days was the time between him buying the DVD and the start of him posting about it...) Put it this way, it took me 9 months to sell the same amount Of DVD's that the Mutt CD has sold in under 18 days. And look, I cannot solely blame Peter for slow sales of the DVD....I just can't. But I can definitely say that what he did had a definite effect and I have been told by people that didn't buy the DVD or that waited for months to get it that their reason was because they had heard bad reviews (and we only had 2, and one was great and the other good...and weird) or read Peters posts and were "scared off". So you connect the dots and tell me what I'm supposed to think?
jeffrey k.
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"Life handed us a paycheck, we said 'we worked harder than this!'" - Modest Mouse
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by jeffrey k.: 07-15-2004 16:54.
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07-15-2004 16:49 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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We've experienced some of the same kind of thing Jeffrey's talking about...
No one is saying that everyone has to like everything that comes out
("Perfect Frank" folks, 'Perfect Frank"...), but many times - the people that
don't like something are the loudest for some reason. That does get a little
frustrating at times.
From our side... we spend a lot of money and a lot of time working on
something... we start getting excited to "unleash it" on the fans finally.
THen, the bulk of the response is negative... not that it's a "big"
response... just a couple of really vocal people that didn't like it. For some
reason, a lot of times the people that don't like something almost appear
to be trying to convince everyone else that they shouldn't like it either
("Its not funny," for example - instead of "I don't get it or find it funny")
and somehow, those couple of people make an impession on folks that
it's the "normal" response. 2 complaints become 40 in the eyes of some.
I can remember this happening with several of the things we've put out...
it goes on sale and we start shipping. The only public response tends to be
a couple of people going "I expected more," "I'd rather have something
else," or just "It's no good." Pirvately, we get emails from folks that love it,
but the bulk of the public talk is only a couple of people telling everyone
else that they probably wouldn't like it if they bought it. How does that
look to the fan thats trying to decide whether or not to buy it. That gets
very frustrating.
The band sees it too... I can remember after the release of one project,
there was nothing but silence on the boards and lists. We got an email
from a couple of the guys asking "is everyone asleep?!"
Let me repeat, this is not directed at anyone specific or in response to any
of these latest MUTT criticisms.. I don't know where I'm going with this....
I'm not trying to stop negative reviews by any means, but the way it's
delivered is important. I say this because you guys are the fans... I
wouldn't try to stop a magazine from printing a negative review - but, you
guys have an invested interest in seeing these guys do well - if for no
other reason, just to have more music coming. You can still admit that
you don't like some releases without discouraging others to check it out.
Sometimes it'd be nice if the folks that don't like a release would just hold
off a bit on telling the world... maybe their opinion would change after a
few weeks... or, the other option would be that the folks that do like it
(which usually outnumbers the folks that don't) would be as vocal as
the ones that don't.
__________________
"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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07-15-2004 16:59 |
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Captain Pedantic
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 12-18-2002
Posts: 2,686
Location: "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence." - Vyvian - The Young Ones
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Captain Pedantic
| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
I saw this with "Via Chicago" too. People were reportedly pretty happy with the DVD, and posting messages to that effect, and then Peter Chattaway opened his big yap and posted his thoughts (it would seem) anywhere and everywhere he could get an audience. In all honesty, after that crap, sales DID drop, |
Well it could be Peter's one comment that dropped sales.... or.... it could be the fact that by the time Peter got his, watched it and posted his comments most of the people who were going to buy had already bought it. You know how rabid we are when a new release comes out, lot's of people buying it in the first few minutes, hours and days. It could be Peter or it could be the sales cycle. After Peters comment and resultant hoo-hah it happened to be the point where all that was left where the people who could wait a bit. |
I figured someone would have to say this....and NO...that isn't what happened. If there was only a 13 day window of sales to the fan-base I'd have agree with you on maybe it being part of a "sales cycle"....but it wasn't. (13 days was the time between him buying the DVD and the start of him posting about it...) Put it this way, it took me 9 months to sell the same amount Of DVD's that the Mutt CD has sold in under 18 days. And look, I cannot solely blame Peter for slow sales of the DVD....I just can't. But I can definitely say that what he did had a definite effect and I have been told by people that didn't buy the DVD or that waited for months to get it that their reason was because they had heard bad reviews (and we only had 2, and one was great and the other good...and weird) or read Peters posts and were "scared off". So you connect the dots and tell me what I'm supposed to think?
jeffrey k. |
Other than to say CD's are different to DVD's and not every one has a DVD player....
Thank you for the clarification of what occured on your "private" side of the sales. It does seem to show a correlation.
For what it's worth - I liked it and stated that publicly a few times...
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07-15-2004 17:44 |
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bereal
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 03-08-2004
Posts: 11,824
Location: "I still love Jesus, I'm just afraid of His followers." DwDunphy
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| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
Sometimes it'd be nice if the folks that don't like a release
would just hold off a bit on telling the world... maybe their
opinion would change after a few weeks... or, the other
option would be that the folks that do like it (which usually
outnumbers the folks that don't) would be as vocal as
the ones that don't. |
That's why I said Mutt is great! I like all of it. There is one song I could've done without, but it's growing on me!
Nuttin negative here!
Anyone else like to add some good reviews?
__________________
Holy God break me, Holy Lord take me
Lay your crushing hand, Your mighty hand, On me gently
Your crushing hand, Your mighty hand, On me gently
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07-15-2004 17:45 |
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Captain Pedantic
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 12-18-2002
Posts: 2,686
Location: "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence." - Vyvian - The Young Ones
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It's all that old business creedo that a happy customer will tell 2 people and an unhappy one will tell 11.
I rent with a manager at McDonalds and he made the comment that a customer who walks away never to return is a loss of $NZ25,000 to the company.
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07-15-2004 17:46 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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I guess one thing that is important to think about...
from our perspective there are three or four major
means of communication to relay information about
releases to a nice size chunk of the DA/77s/Dogs/Choir
record buying audience.... the messageboards and
email lists. To specifically post a negative review to
one of those imediately upon a release of a project
is sending a message to a large chunk of the guys
potential customers that the release is dissapointing.
Whatever release that it might be at the time, it's pretty
much happened with every release.
Thats why it sticks out so much to us... we don't want
to slam people's opinions, or their right to express them.
But at the same time the guys customer base is a
small but loyal following, unfortunately they need every
sale they can get. And we also don't want to discourage
any possible new fan from buying.
Maybe the real key is the timing of the negative comments,
if they happen exactly when something is being sold and they
go to the exact customer base... thats hurtful. There is no other
way to put it.
We absolutely love the Mutt album, the live show was amazing!
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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07-15-2004 18:32 |
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Jevon the Tall
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-13-2002
Posts: 943
Location: "You're not from around here are you?" said the stranger to the little man in the wool sweater who looked vaguely like a sheep. Maybe it was the long boots but he was kind of cute. "What's your name?" he asked "My friends call me Theo." he replied
Thread Starter 
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I said it was good. How is that negative? So I'm not a big fan of the glock, shoot me (in the arm or leg below the knee - no head shots please).
This is a minority report after all.
I promise to make no more comments other than rose coloured glasses comments in light of being called an idiot like Peter. Who I've only met once, and his comments were about the train more than the dogs. Peter is a reviewer who didn't like the allusion and went off on it. He also has really unruly hair, maybe that's what has him on edge.
But that's him. For me, Steve's choice of sounds, barring how well they were played didn't work for me on a number of fronts. However, that's me, and I'm obviously in the wrong here. (PS yes I can play drums, just not really good anymore - I sold my kit 20 years ago)
I'm not going away to sulk - I was hoping to generate some discussion on the album and it did. Which is good for business.
If I really wanted to go off and be ignorant about the band, I have a pretty big vehicle of my own if I choose to be an burro about things. But why would I? I expressed my opinion, and the album is good overall. Better than many other things I've had playing lately.
Perhaps it would be safer to continue to pick on Carman's ministry - at least we mostly agree there.
... and so it goes.
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07-15-2004 18:47 |
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Eleanor
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-13-2002
Posts: 5,111
Location: NFP
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| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
Maybe the real key is the timing of the negative comments,
if they happen exactly when something is being sold and they
go to the exact customer base... thats hurtful. There is no other
way to put it.
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but what if something REALLY sucks? (not that anything has or does or will, it's just a question) The kind of suck where everyone thinks it glows with warmth, even you guys!
I would still buy it to see for myself but others may like to know that before they spend their money
ok, shoot me now
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07-15-2004 20:25 |
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