 Cornerstone - the end is near |
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
 |
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
Your argumentative position doesn't prove my opinion wrong. In my opinion, they could have made money and kept going had they not followed the course they did, so since they made no money according to you and are shutting down.. that kind of renders their vision flawed whether they changed it as I attest or whether they didn't as you contend. So the argument is moot. |
I'm not arguing, but I am trying to have a discussion that you seem to want to shut down with a dismissive "you're not an insider like I am, so you can't understand it."
I'm just curious to have somebody put into words exactly what their "focus" and "vision" changed from and to that's caused them to go out of business.
If they've been doing it wrong, what would you have done differently? Who would you have booked in 2005, for example, instead of who they booked (as listed above)?
JRjr
|
|
05-24-2012 06:59 |
|
|
Audiori J 
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
I've already sort of addressed that, I think they tried to go too big for one.
The problem with something like this is its not measurable, there is no right or wrong opinion because nobody can actually know any of it for sure. So, I was stating my opinion as it is, you can take it or leave it.. agree or disagree.. it just doesn't matter. My experience is different than yours, you say other people agree with your opinion and there are people that agree with mine right here in this thread.
You seem to me to be taking offense to my opinion and seem to be trying to pick it apart piece by piece. That is why I have avoided some of your questioning and tried to frame it differently. We can go the argumentative route and ping pong back and forth, I am quite capable of that, or we can try and just accept that experience may vary.
I think we should agree that it would be great if the festival would continue. To continue it needs to be profitable or in the very least break even. It is after all a business. I don't believe they would have lasted as long as they did if they were losing huge amounts of money every year. And because of that, I believe they were originally making money and probably were up until the last several years. I witnessed a change which you alluded to several times; they stopped focusing on the bands that originally started the fest, the older regulars started drifting away, the die hard fans of bands like DA stopped coming to a large degree, etc. You seem to attribute that to just market attrition, and refuse to think that the focus or vision changed, where I on the other hand think all of these factors are linked with them starting to become less profitable.
I think it is the original old timers and die hard fans that were the most financially supportive, (they used the merch tents as a place to buy lots of stuff, not just a hang out joint to get out of the rain) they made the fest successful and most likely would have continued to make the fest successful but the direction changed from focusing on this family of like-minded artists that made the fest what it was to trying to be Creation II only bigger. I mean they advertized being a festival with over 120 bands and at the same time tried as I stated before to bring in big name headliners. Both a mistake in my opinion, quality over quantity.
My point about myself having a different point of view because I worked with the bands just meant I spent a lot of time around the merch tents and the financial aspects that maybe a lot of fest goers would not of seen as much of. That might shape my opinion in a way that it wouldn't the everage fest goer. I could sit and watch the merch tents being stuffed to the hilt with merch that nobody was interested in or buying, and I could see which stuff was selling and where those bands were relegated to.
My point about DA being the band that broke all the merch table records was testament to the fact that in spite of the fact that the fest stopped focusing on bands like this and in spite of the fact that a large number of DA fans and Cornerstone old timers quit coming, this band made more money for the fest through merchant sales than any other band ever that year. So what could of been done had they not changed their focus on these type of bands and kept the die hard fans and old timers coming to the festival? and kept the size of the fest smaller and maybe not tried to bring in all the big names? In my opinion there could of been a much more profitable situation that was mutually beneficial. These types of artists have the potential to bring in a lot of cash if handled correctly for several reasons. Take POD, maybe a big draw to the festival for one day but most likely dismal merch sales because they tour and you can buy their product everywhere. DA on the other hand for a long time had not toured and for a lot of people Cornerstone was their only link to their merch or seeing them live for that matter. People came from all over the world, literally, to see DA at Cornerstone. Somewhere along the way the people in charge of the fest got the idea that in order to make more money they needed to focus on different bands and headliners, I personally think that is where they lost their focus and where the end began.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-24-2012 08:53 |
|
|
John Foxe
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 654
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Thread Starter 
|
|
I stopped coming around 2005 because:
Cost - they raised prices for the daily to something very unreasonable. I was taking multiple people in one car for slightly more than a day, so they charged me for a two-day rate which took nearly all my cash and left me feeling ripped off.
Bands - there were only a few DA-related bands that were booked, and a lot of screamo/emo bands I wanted nothing to do with. It made no sense to spend tons of money on a daily or go a full week, when the bands I wanted were not there.
Misplaced priorities - higher prices, coupled with the different band lineups and the things at the fest they were clearly spending a lot of money on, didn't sit well with me. This was topped off with an emotional appeal for money from Bono on the Jumbotron that seemed incongruous with the situation.
JJ Thompson wrote me a kind email in response to my issues above. Maybe he heard me, I don't know. I have always respected him and his ministry. But he was in the middle of it for a while.
I don't mean to be ungrateful. Cornerstone is one of the few places I can see the bands I love. I really loved and appreciated the 2011 fest and will go to 2012. But clearly they did lose their way at some point.
__________________
I'm a middle-aged hitchhiker...
LetsSpin@comcast.net
|
|
|
05-24-2012 09:19 |
|
|
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I've already sort of addressed that, I think they tried to go too big for one.
|
It's possible, though I'd posit that "going too big" wasn't the problem so much as "trying to stay big for too long." The festival was absolutely massive in the 1997-2001 time frame. I believe those were the peak attendance years, and I've heard (anecdotal evidence, but that's about all we really have) that they broke even or made some money those years. So "big" was working for a while. I think maybe they were a bit too slow to start scaling back as attendance waned, though.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I think we should agree that it would be great if the festival would continue.
|
That's not really the vibe I've gotten from your posts, which seem to have more of a "I don't like the way they've been doing things, so they're dead to me anyway" tone to them. I know this is the DA board, but looking at things from a perspective that's not quite so DA-centric can be instructive.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I don't believe they would have lasted as long as they did if they were losing huge amounts of money every year. And because of that, I believe they were originally making money and probably were up until the last several years.
|
"Losing huge amounts of money" are your words, not mine. Since neither of us have financial records for the fest, it's all just guesswork anyway.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I witnessed a change which you alluded to several times; they stopped focusing on the bands that originally started the fest, the older regulars started drifting away, the die hard fans of bands like DA stopped coming to a large degree, etc. You seem to attribute that to just market attrition, and refuse to think that the focus or vision changed, where I on the other hand think all of these factors are linked with them starting to become less profitable.
|
Most of the "bands that originally started the fest" more or less stopped operating through the mid-to-late 90s. However, the fest kept bringing in solo versions (Roe sets, Hindalong sets, Taylor sets, etc.) when they could. You could probably make the case that Cornerstone helped keep those bands alive or spark revivals of their careers in the 2000s, after the bands seemed ready to pack it in during the 90s.
And as much as I'd have liked to have been at Cornerstone '84, time marches on. Bands come and go, fans come and go. The music industry (especially the Christian music industry) has gone through massive changes, and I firmly believe that Cornerstone NEEDED to change and grow and stay current and relevant, rather than continue to try to put on Cornerstone '84 every year.
I LOVE DA and the Choir. I LOVE old 77's stuff, and merely tolerate their newer stuff. I like Adam Again and the Lost Dogs. I also like a lot of other stuff, stuff that came and went over the years, and stuff that's current today. That seems to make me and some of my friends fairly unique at the festival, because we go to all those old-timer shows, and then we go to stuff like Anberlin or Mute Math. It seems like a lot of the folks at the "old-timer" shows have a much narrower focus, and I think that results in a skewed perspective. I think the fest does a good job juggling the "nostalgia acts" and stuff that's current, and I feel like I'm in a pretty good position to speak to that, since I have a foot in both worlds.
There are kids coming to Cornerstone for Norma Jean or Underoath or The Devil Wears Prada shows, stuff I tend to avoid except to sample it and see what the fuss is all about, to whom Cornerstone NOW means as much as Cornerstone THEN meant to you. The festival is bigger than stuff I like or stuff you like, and I think that's a strength, not a "loss of focus."
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I think it is the original old timers and die hard fans that were the most financially supportive, (they used the merch tents as a place to buy lots of stuff, not just a hang out joint to get out of the rain) they made the fest successful and most likely would have continued to make the fest successful but the direction changed from focusing on this family of like-minded artists that made the fest what it was to trying to be Creation II only bigger. I mean they advertized being a festival with over 120 bands and at the same time tried as I stated before to bring in big name headliners. Both a mistake in my opinion, quality over quantity.
|
The Underoath kids pay just as much for tickets as the old timers. (Heck, probably more; half of the old timers are getting in free because they're "with the band," or cheap because they're "press.") In 1997, the Supertones took in $20K at their merch table on the day that they played - it sounds like their fans were doing more in the merch tent than hanging out or getting out of the rain.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
My point about DA being the band that broke all the merch table records was testament to the fact that in spite of the fact that the fest stopped focusing on bands like this and in spite of the fact that a large number of DA fans and Cornerstone old timers quit coming, this band made more money for the fest through merchant sales than any other band ever that year.
|
How much focus on DA do you want? You're saying that DA played the festival, had a good crowd, and sold a lot of merch. The fest booked DA - what more do you want? Did Cornerstone ever say "no thanks, DA, we don't really want you this year"? When the fest sees 10,000 people at a POD show and 1000 at a DA show, can you really make the argument that the wise business move is to say "no thanks" to POD and instead put DA, Swirling Eddies, and the Rap-Sures on Main Stage?
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
So what could of been done had they not changed their focus on these type of bands and kept the die hard fans and old timers coming to the festival? and kept the size of the fest smaller and maybe not tried to bring in all the big names? In my opinion there could of been a much more profitable situation that was mutually beneficial. These types of artists have the potential to bring in a lot of cash if handled correctly for several reasons. Take POD, big draw to the festival for one day but most likely dismal merch sales because they tour and you can buy their product everywhere. DA on the other hand for a long time had not toured and for a lot of people Cornerstone was their only link to their merch or seeing them live for that matter. People came from all over the world, literally, to see DA at Cornerstone.
|
Great for DA for having a big year of merch sales. But if the band's not putting out new product, how much are they going to sell the next year and the next? Surely scarcity (the band doesn't put stuff out that often, and doesn't play very much) is a big factor driving those big sales (from which Cornerstone takes only a cut).
That doesn't change the fact that, despite the fact that people came from all over the world to see DA, at least 10 times more people show up for a POD show. Now, I'd rather see DA than POD (although POD has better pyro...), but still...when you look at the numbers, I think your perspective is biased.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
Somewhere along the way the people in charge of the fest got the idea that in order to make more money they needed to focus on different bands and headliners, I personally think that is where they lost their focus and where the end began. |
I still say this sounds like "Cornerstone needed to be Daniel Amos Fest and then they wouldn't have gone out of business," which, as much as I love DA, just doesn't hold water when you step back and look at things objectively.
As you say, since the fest is ending, they clearly should have done SOMETHING different, but I just can't get onboard with "continue putting on Cornerstone '84 every year" as that something. Playing to a dwindling pool of folks who were in their teens and 20s in the 1980s is NOT the answer.
JRjr
|
|
|
05-24-2012 10:07 |
|
|
Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
^ Exactly what I have tried to avoid, and will not get caught up in - an assinine ping pong match. In case you missed it I was just using DA as an example.
| quote: |
Originally posted by John Foxe
I stopped coming around 2005 because:
Cost - they raised prices for the daily to something very unreasonable. I was taking multiple people in one car for slightly more than a day, so they charged me for a two-day rate which took nearly all my cash and left me feeling ripped off.
Bands - there were only a few DA-related bands that were booked, and a lot of screamo/emo bands I wanted nothing to do with. It made no sense to spend tons of money on a daily or go a full week, when the bands I wanted were not there.
Misplaced priorities - higher prices, coupled with the different band lineups and the things at the fest they were clearly spending a lot of money on, didn't sit well with me. This was topped off with an emotional appeal for money from Bono on the Jumbotron that seemed incongruous with the situation.
JJ Thompson wrote me a kind email in response to my issues above. Maybe he heard me, I don't know. I have always respected him and his ministry. But he was in the middle of it for a while.
I don't mean to be ungrateful. Cornerstone is one of the few places I can see the bands I love. I really loved and appreciated the 2011 fest and will go to 2012. But clearly they did lose their way at some point. |
I agree with everything you said. I loved Cornerstone and hated to see it die, and I was mourning it a few years back as well. And I too voiced my opinion to some who were involved which I guess went nowhere.
I speculate that they probably went big since the finances were good and it didn't pay off because by going big they ran off their financiers who were in love with what the fest was already. Then they probably refocused and came up with plans on how to turn it around which included going bigger and bringing in bigger names, etc. The situation got worse and worse.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-24-2012 10:20 |
|
|
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
I agree with everything you said. I loved Cornerstone and hated to see it die, and I was mourning it a few years back as well. And I too voiced my opinion to some who were involved which I guess went nowhere.
I speculate that they probably went big since the finances were good and it didn't pay off because by going big they ran off their financiers who were in love with what the fest was already. Then they probably refocused and came up with plans on how to turn it around which included going bigger and bringing in bigger names, etc. The situation got worse and worse. |
I suspect that you're overestimating the financial situation of the festival.
I suspect that you're also overestimating the financial contributions of the "old timer" crowd, especially once those "old timer" bands passed their heyday, relative to the younger generation. (Both are important.)
I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing ways to improve/streamline/save the fest, both with friends in the same position I'm in, and with folks that have a bit more insight into the inner workings of the fest. Sometimes they implemented stuff I thought was a good idea, and sometimes they didn't, but given that they have access to actual numbers and years of experience running a fest, and given that they didn't set out to be unsuccessful, I had to grant at some point that they were acting in the best interests of the festival.
We do agree on one thing - this discussion is asinine. :-) That said, if you guys decide to try to recreate Cornerstone '84 some place next summer, I can guarantee you I'll be there hoping that you succeed.
JRjr
|
|
|
05-24-2012 12:19 |
|
|
Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
It seemed they changed their focus maybe 8 years ago.
The "Cornerstone" everyone is mourning seems to be long gone. |
Yeah I agree and its the same time John Foxe mentioned, around 2005. I felt that they were teetering on that edge maybe slightly earlier, but I think the misdirection might have been closer to full swing by 2005.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-24-2012 12:58 |
|
|
Ritchie_az
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 07-02-2008
Posts: 2,139
Location: Arizona
|
|
"Looks like the end of Cornerstone is right around the corner, Stone." --Anonymous to someone named Stone
I've never been, but I have some Live At Cornerstone CDs. I did do the vote-for-who-you'd-like-us-to-book thing, but was disappointed by the final selections.
To me, Cornerstone made more sense as a venue for "classic" bands, rare acts, reunions and up-and-comers than a venue for the K-Love/Air1 bands. As Jason said, you can see the "popular" groups anywhere. Where's the novelty?
__________________
So I can type anything I want here? No?
My Photography Blog
|
|
|
05-24-2012 14:03 |
|
|
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ritchie_az
To me, Cornerstone made more sense as a venue for "classic" bands, rare acts, reunions and up-and-comers than a venue for the K-Love/Air1 bands. As Jason said, you can see the "popular" groups anywhere. Where's the novelty? |
I don't listen to Christian radio, but if I'm understanding what K-Love and Air1 are, I think your understanding of Cornerstone is a bit off base.
Aside from occasional "youth group bait" bands like TobyMac, Third Day, or David Crowder on Main Stage (to bring in local youth groups as much as anything, I suspect), Cornerstone has next to nothing in common with what you hear on Christian radio.
There's a flood of screamy metal/hardcore bands (from bands paying to play on generator stages, to various smaller stages, all the way up to Main Stage, which has hosted bands like Underoath, the Devil Wears Prada, and others). If I had one complaint about Cornerstone in recent years, it's the prevalence of all the screamy, Mountain Dewed off music that constantly pounds you from every direction.
There's a lot of hippie/folkie/world music stuff (various JPUSA acts, stuff like The Crossing, Aradhna, Josh Garrels, and plenty of other guitar strummers).
There's a nice assortment of "classic" bands (usually some combination of the Choir, DA, 77s, Lost Dogs, plus solo acts and various permutations of those bands), plus newer classics like Over the Rhine and Violet Burning.
There are also occasional reunions, though that's not something the fest can really control. There were a lot of old-time reunion shows last year, and also back around 2001. And given that we're 20 years removed from parts of the 90s, we're starting to see reunions from bands from that time period (with Supertones and Squad Five-O initially on this year's schedule, and lots of angst that the Five Iron Frenzy reunion wasn't playing the fest).
There's a good bit of "up and coming" stuff that straddles the line between the mainstream and Christian markets (and this is the stuff that I particularly love): Anberlin, Mute Math, Eisley, Paramore, Paper Route, Deas Vail, Seabird - great bands.
Hopefully the point is clear that Cornerstone isn't a "Christian radio" festival, and there's more good stuff there than just bands you liked in the 80s.
JRjr
|
|
|
05-24-2012 15:20 |
|
|
Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ritchie_az
"Looks like the end of Cornerstone is right around the corner, Stone." --Anonymous to someone named Stone
I've never been, but I have some Live At Cornerstone CDs. I did do the vote-for-who-you'd-like-us-to-book thing, but was disappointed by the final selections.
To me, Cornerstone made more sense as a venue for "classic" bands, rare acts, reunions and up-and-comers than a venue for the K-Love/Air1 bands. As Jason said, you can see the "popular" groups anywhere. Where's the novelty? |
The big issue with this is also as I said, the 'popular' groups are the most expensive and I question how many more people they actually bring in anyway since you can see them pretty much anywhere including much better venues for cheaper. I mean if I can see Jars of Clay in a theater near where I live for $20 or $30.. every year.. why drive a couple of states to treck down and see them in a field with a lot of other band noise in the background? Some might argue because there are 119 other bands playing, which is true.. but the average fan of bands like these are not interested in those bands and if they do come to the fest they only do for the one day and then leave.
I mean you can revearse the situation.. DA and the 77s played Creation festival in 2001.. some DA fans in the area probably went.. but most didn't because they are typically not interested in the other acts that play there or the fest itself. Not to mention you could see DA elsewhere like at Cornerstone that year, or Onefest, etc.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-24-2012 16:54 |
|
|
DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
Posts: 1,817
Location: Red Bank, New Jersey
|
|
I think what sort of was getting to me (as someone who never actually got there) was a prevalence of bands that seemed to like to shift skin when they were there, then disavow it all when they were not.
It is probably extremely hypocritical that I above anyone should say something like this. Yet I still get put off by bands that are only as Christian as the audience paying to see them, and then when they're interviewed by Rolling Stone have a completely different attitude. That happened an awful lot with the Tooth and Nail bands, and while I have a lot of respect for the label, I found it distressing that it was so porous that you never really knew where you stood with them.
Chevelle might be a great band and my bias has prevented me from embracing them. Meanwhile I can appreciate a band of non-believers like Rush. But then again, Rush never played Cornerstone. I don't know. Maybe these groups were young in their faith and could only be open about around other believers, then shut down outside of that. It is possible. Maybe mainstream acceptance was too intoxicating to refuse. Also possible. I just didn't want to feel like some bands were playing the Jesus Kids like suckers. Sometimes that felt probable.
What all this had to do with Cornerstone was that there came a moment where those exact types of bands seemed to be accepted with open arms, only to have them disrespect the core audience when they had other types of interviews and venues.
Maybe I'm totally wrong on this...it just felt that way for awhile.
|
|
|
05-24-2012 21:09 |
|
|
Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
It could be that breaking into secular mainstream music is too difficult, but at a place like Cornerstone it seemed that any couple of guys could play a stage, get on a label and make a record. The standards are set very, very low. Once they have an album on any old label that will take them, it becomes like a springboard for what they really wanted in the first place.. a mainstream secular music career. In this sense, the artists could have been 'un-christian' from the start and played the christian music game for a season. Either that or, they want to be 'secret agent christians' in a secular industry.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-24-2012 21:30 |
|
|
brother joel
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 03-03-2007
Posts: 296
Location: Bernville, PA
|
|
First off, I was at the 2001 show at Creation. . . DA did not get enough time on the stage, they were in the heat of the afternoon and got to play like 4 or 5 songs. I went because I am a youth pastor and while all my youth were over at the fringe stage dancing to some hardcore band I was basking in the sun beneath the shadow of DA. I probably would not have gone for just DA as I went to Cornerstone the previous year and thus had experienced DA live at this point. Though I have been known to drive to Creation for a day so I could see it happening for DA--I did get to take my wife to this show, which was not true for Cornerstone the previous year.
In regards to the end of the festival, as I said before I am in sadness. . . Cornerstone was unique among Christian fests in their choice to give opportunity to bands who otherwise would not get to a festival. One might argue that there has been a shift in the bands invited to play and that might be so, I have not paid real close attention in recent years. I think that it gets harder and harder to promote events based on what bands are asking in general for a show. I have promoted a few low end concerts here at the church. We had Manafest come in 5 years ago and he charged $500. Then we wanted to get him in again 2 years later and he wanted to charge us $1500. . . This is ridiculous for 1 guy as we also had to pay for transportation and lodging. I am sure expenses went up for him, but his popularity did too so he decided he could charge more.
I also think that economics play into the fact that festival attendance has gone down. If I had the accounts to support my trip to Cornerstone every year then I would, but in the current economy I cannot. I don't go to very many concert events at all because I just don't have the budget. I imagine that affects many people's ability to go to a festival and thus the festival struggles to make ends meet while booking bands who ask for more and more funds so that they can make ends meet.
I just thought I would add my thoughts as I have been shadowing the conversation and considered I might contribute.
__________________
Pour your fire down
Before my heart drowns
Before the hammer pounds
Before the laughter consumes
Before the reaper looms
Before the land swallows
Before I enter the gallows
|
|
|
05-25-2012 10:36 |
|
|
Ritchie_az
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 07-02-2008
Posts: 2,139
Location: Arizona
|
|
Kansas has their annual "Wheathead" fest. It's typically in Kansas, but they've had it elsewhere (like Las Vegas) a couple times. Kansas is obviously the headline act, and Kansas-related artists (such as Steve Walsh solo, Proto~Kaw a couple times, Jake Livgren, tribute bands, etc) open up for them.
How about an annual Lost Dogs fest?
You could have an annual event that features DA, 77s, The Choir, Lost Dogs, Swirling Eddies, 7&7iS, Larry, DAS, and Kerosene Halo, as well as solo stuff from Terry, Jerry, Derri, Mike and Steve. Maybe there are other related artists. Fan bands. Bands that consider the main artists as a major influence (e.g. SF59). Bands that want to pay tribute to the main artists.
I don't know where the best place for something like this would be, but perhaps there are some areas that have a high concentration of fans. It could be in the same place each year, or in a different place each year.
I think it would take help from the fans (both financially and physically) to pull it off. But I'm pretty sure it could be pulled off.
It need be only one day, I would think. If there were a lot of interest (both by fans and artists), it could be two days, but one day seems more practical.
Something like this is something I would be willing to travel across a couple states to experience.
Anyone else with some thoughts?
__________________
So I can type anything I want here? No?
My Photography Blog
|
|
|
05-25-2012 12:19 |
|
|
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by brother joel
I think that it gets harder and harder to promote events based on what bands are asking in general for a show. I have promoted a few low end concerts here at the church. We had Manafest come in 5 years ago and he charged $500. Then we wanted to get him in again 2 years later and he wanted to charge us $1500. . . This is ridiculous for 1 guy as we also had to pay for transportation and lodging. I am sure expenses went up for him, but his popularity did too so he decided he could charge more.
I also think that economics play into the fact that festival attendance has gone down. If I had the accounts to support my trip to Cornerstone every year then I would, but in the current economy I cannot. I don't go to very many concert events at all because I just don't have the budget. I imagine that affects many people's ability to go to a festival and thus the festival struggles to make ends meet while booking bands who ask for more and more funds so that they can make ends meet.
|
As more and more Christian bands have been able to make inroads into the mainstream, I'm sure the asking price has gone up. In the early days, the opportunities for a lot of bands consisted of Cornerstone or a church basement. Now it's Cornerstone or the Warped Tour, and stuff like that. Plus, some bands just don't want to be associated with the Christian market, even something as far on the fringes as Cornerstone, so the pool of bands to choose from is reduced a bit.
I've talked a bit recently with folks involved with the fest, and hopefully they won't mind me sharing some of the general things that we discussed. Apparently bands or booking agents charge more (sometimes a lot more, like 10x more) for festival appearances compared to regular tour dates. That definitely hurts the bottom line.
The economy, and gas prices in particular, have hurt a lot. It hurts on an individual level, with people not being able to afford to make the trip, and it hurts in other ways as high fuel costs get rolled into the cost of everything that has to be shipped to the festival (which is EVERYTHING - tents, stages, toilets, etc.).
Apparently what people want out of a festival experience has changed, too. When the fest moved out to the middle of nowhere in 1990 or so, that was viewed as a positive - people liked festivals out in the middle of nowhere. I've certainly always enjoyed that aspect of Cornerstone, compared to something like AtlantaFest that takes place at Six Flags. Now, at least becasue of the economy and fuel costs, but possibly for other cultural reasons too, being out in the middle of nowhere is apparently more of a negative than a positive.
It seems that there are a lot of factors at play, but whatever the cause, it's still going to be a sad day when the fest ends for the last time.
JRjr
|
|
|
05-25-2012 12:29 |
|
|
John Foxe
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 654
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Thread Starter
|
|
Any chance DA or Terry will make it for this final time?
So far, I see about 60 bands confirmed, including 77s unplugged, Choir, Violet Burning, Jeff Elbel & Ping. Not bad so far, considering all the bands are playing for free this year, but it would be great to beef this up with more of the bands we love. Somehow maybe we can make it worth their while via the merch tent, no matter where they're relegated...
__________________
I'm a middle-aged hitchhiker...
LetsSpin@comcast.net
|
|
|
05-25-2012 13:22 |
|
|
vapspwi
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 02-21-2007
Posts: 21
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by John Foxe
Any chance DA or Terry will make it for this final time?
So far, I see about 60 bands confirmed, including 77s unplugged, Choir, Violet Burning, Jeff Elbel & Ping. Not bad so far, considering all the bands are playing for free this year, but it would be great to beef this up with more of the bands we love. Somehow maybe we can make it worth their while via the merch tent, no matter where they're relegated... |
I was encouraged to see The Echoing Green and The Waiting, both of whom I saw my first time at the fest, and neither of whom I've seen in years, get added to the schedule AFTER the "fest is ending, everybody's playing for free" thing came out.
It would be nice if Terry could somehow make it, but I definitely understand if he can't.
JRjr
|
|
|
05-25-2012 13:25 |
|
|
Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by John Foxe
Any chance DA or Terry will make it for this final time?
So far, I see about 60 bands confirmed, including 77s unplugged, Choir, Violet Burning, Jeff Elbel & Ping. Not bad so far, considering all the bands are playing for free this year, but it would be great to beef this up with more of the bands we love. Somehow maybe we can make it worth their while via the merch tent, no matter where they're relegated... |
I have not heard yet, maybe my brother would know. But I do know Terry has a lot of personal issues on his plate right now and those cause some pretty rough financial situations.
As for being relegated, when these bands that we have worked for negotiate their contracts they usually have it in there a certain number of tables and where they are etc, as well as what percentage the fest gets from the mech. What seems to have been happening the last several years is we get there and they have already given our table that was promised away and we end up in one of the lesser merch tents off in a corner. I know a couple years ago we were promised two tables in the center of the main tent and we ended up with a one table behind two other tables in the corner of the smallest tent. There has also been discrepancies in what they say the percentages are when we settle up, they tell us its higher than the contract says for example. There have been many many other issues. We are supposed to be on the guest lists for the bands as their merch guys and some years we end up not there for some reason. We've had issues getting back stage to set up the DA/77s/Dogs merch when they play the mainstage.. even though it is promised. almost every year we had issues parking our car by the merch tents to unload the product, some years we just gave up on it and parked in the regular fest parking and carried merch down. I could write a book on this stuff, you'd be amazed at how poorly things have been done. It didn't used to be this bad, but I'd say the last ten years or so it has really gone down hill.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
|
|
|
05-25-2012 14:09 |
|
|
audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
|
|
I know that last time I heard, his schedule was pretty full through early August I believe. I'm sure he'd try to work something out for Cornerstone, but it might not be possible.
__________________
"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
|
|
|
05-26-2012 12:19 |
|
|
peawinkel
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 03-24-2005
Posts: 2,018
Location: Alabaster, AL
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ritchie_az
Kansas has their annual "Wheathead" fest. It's typically in Kansas, but they've had it elsewhere (like Las Vegas) a couple times. Kansas is obviously the headline act, and Kansas-related artists (such as Steve Walsh solo, Proto~Kaw a couple times, Jake Livgren, tribute bands, etc) open up for them.
How about an annual Lost Dogs fest?
You could have an annual event that features DA, 77s, The Choir, Lost Dogs, Swirling Eddies, 7&7iS, Larry, DAS, and Kerosene Halo, as well as solo stuff from Terry, Jerry, Derri, Mike and Steve. Maybe there are other related artists. Fan bands. Bands that consider the main artists as a major influence (e.g. SF59). Bands that want to pay tribute to the main artists.
I don't know where the best place for something like this would be, but perhaps there are some areas that have a high concentration of fans. It could be in the same place each year, or in a different place each year.
I think it would take help from the fans (both financially and physically) to pull it off. But I'm pretty sure it could be pulled off.
It need be only one day, I would think. If there were a lot of interest (both by fans and artists), it could be two days, but one day seems more practical.
Something like this is something I would be willing to travel across a couple states to experience.
Anyone else with some thoughts? |
Yes, Alabaster, AL would be an ideal location for such a fest
__________________
If you tuned in to listen to Third Day, Casting Crowns, or Chris Tomlin,
You've come to the wrong place
P103
|
|
|
05-26-2012 18:00 |
|
|
|
