 Randy Stonehill -Between the Glory & The Flame |
MarkyMark77
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 10-11-2002
Posts: 512
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| Anyone who would go for a digital LP rip over official product is secretly being spiteful. |
It's good to hear everyone's opinion on this. I have a slightly different view, only in the area of who downloads. I think if a devoted fan (much like those who have posted in this thread) get a copy or a download of an OOP DA disc, they will most likely buy any reissue that comes out afterward. Technically, this is illegal, but so are mix tapes..er...CD's. The reason why most of us are okay with mix discs is that we think that no one's out any money, and we think that our favorite artist might actually make money because of it. If one of us (you know, us devotees) gets a download of something that is OOP, most likely, no one is out any money because we'll buy it when it gets reissued. To me, that is understandable.
For example, if Dennis has every DA disc but "Alarma", and happens along a download of "Alarma", knowing that when it is reissued (<HINT>in the boxset with extra live tracks, and hopefully soon</HINT> he will buy it, I don't really see a problem with that. The problem is that not everyone's that hardcore about it, I know. But they should be! 
BTW, do you really think that Randy is not trying to reissue "Between the Glory & The Flame" as some point? My guess is that, just like DA, he's trying on various levels to reissue everything in his back catalog. For those of you who get the LP rip, will you buy it when it comes out? My guess is you will, just because that's the kind of good people you are!
My guess is that some of you have "illegal" music in your collections, but that you also will not cheat the artist out of their rightful compensation when that illegal music is available legally.
Yeah, I know you can buy this stuff on e-bay, but these guys don't see a cent from that. If strict legality (spirit of the law vs. letter of the law) is the issue for you, then this is the way to go, certainly.
Let me say that, a little while ago, I bought a copy of "Mutt" from a Family Christian store for $1.49. Kind of made me a little sad.
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| It just baffles me. |
Being a paid music minister, I'm glad people pay for music! I think it comes from Christians seeing music and art as superfluous and not a life's necessity. That comes from a segment of the Church that devalues art, and now has turned it into product. But, it wasn't always like that. Music was and is a big deal to God, so much so that some of the Levites lived in the temple, and played music full-time. That's all they did. You can see in the building of the temple that art was a big deal to God as well.
So, Jerry...
Is there any chance of any Jacob's Trouble reissues?
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04-10-2008 10:18 |
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Mountain Fan 
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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Does anyone besides me see any practical differences in the formats?
Back in high school I made plenty of copies on cassettes from friends. Sometimes I got aggravated if it didn't fit on one 90-min tape side by 5 minutes because I didn't want to waste a 60-min tape on it. 
I know I wouldn't have bought probably 90%+ of those albums had I not made copies. Most were listened to less frequently than things I bought. They mostly sat there, but they did help generate some buzz among friends. I had to make the physical effort to borrow the album and tend to the copy process. If I really liked something I might have bought it. Now, with MP3 files and whatnot, things can be downloaded on demand and shared with a few clicks.
To me, the ease of current technology makes it less likely that those who are not ardent fans of a band will actually buy something they got illegally. After all, they're not having to physically pick up a cassette and are just hitting the same buttons on their ipod or whatever.
I certainly appreciate the pirating problem and loss of profit but I would still consider sharing "among friends" for OOP stuff that is not likely to be made available.
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04-10-2008 10:42 |
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Audiori J
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Registration Date: 11-27-2004
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How do you know what is likely (or not) to be made available?
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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04-10-2008 11:41 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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well - thats a problem.
I'll just be frank using the example that MF gave.
I have an official Doppleganger, and an offical Vox Humana I got through Stunt- ordering it in the Mid 90s..
Shortly Afterward, I "acquired" Alarma and FS (not from friends here -but from Napster.)
There - I said it. they have homeade artwork- and all 4 sit as a set.in my DA "treasure box"
When I saw Terry for the first time (Nov 2000) - I saw the AC Boxset-(30 bucks btw) and opted not to get it at that time- the thing was I was offed by the fact it was only 3 discs) but I bought A.F. , a Phil Madreria, and a copy of Motorcycle- from the table they has set out (paid 20.00 for Motorcycle- no regrets whatsoever)
When I found out that the AC booklet was really something to get- (probably in 2001..not that long afterward) it was O.O.S..and within 6 months of that was going for 75 bucks a pop on E bay. NOw its 150.00 or so.
So - I did not give Terry directly ALL that I could- but I gave him what my conscience and budget (and yes- my stupidity) would allow at the time.
Since that time (over 5 years) I buy probably 80 % of anything new directly here of DA/TST/LD (well and 100% of 77s) out there.
SO - in order to get to hear the AC..I now own half good and half bad.
If AC came out and was resaonable (30 to 50) Id buy.
Do I speak for most of us with this logic?
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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04-10-2008 12:28 |
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MarkyMark77
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 10-11-2002
Posts: 512
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| quote: |
| How do you know what is likely (or not) to be made available? |
It would be a guess. But the less discussion there is about an album, or a reissue of an album, the more likely that it will remain out of print. Sure, anything is possible, but I think MF's view is right. I have bought a lot of music from free (and legal) downloads, and people playing me music. It's not quite the same, I know, because no one is "stealing" the music, and it's legal, but the point is that I like to hear new music. I wouldn't have been an Adam Again/77's fan if I had not heard (on cassette demos) "Dig" and "Pray Naked", respectively. For me, if someone gave me a download or a copy of something I liked, I'd buy it. If I didn't like it, I would not have bought it anyway.
I understand, though, that, in our culture, some people have an Ipod full of illegal music. I think, at this point, that the music industry is reaping what they've sown by making music mere product. It doesn't excuse the illegal stuff, I know, but it's how people see music now. It's very disposable, bland nonsense, so why should they pay for it?
I know that many music fans (myself included) are sick of buying albums only to find one or two good songs, fleshed out with 8 or 9 crappy ones so that the band could sell a full-length CD, and make more money. Coupled with bonus tracks sold at different stores, special edition reissues that have one new song on them, etc., it's no wonder that music consumers are fed up. One in particular, "Last Man Standing" by Jerry Lee Lewis comes to mind. To get all the songs from this album, I would have had to buy five copies at different stores to get all the bonus songs. Does that sound consumer-friendly to you?
A lot of hardcore fans are not going to wait until Lo-Fidelity or Arena Rock suddenly, out of the blue, reissues their favorite disc. This isn't a slam on those labels; they're great, excellent labels to be sure, but they are at the whim of those labels (KMG, for example) who own the rights to stuff that a Lo-Fi or Arena Rock would love to reissue. And, again, a lot of fans just aren't going to wait for years to hear it. But those same fans, I believe, will buy the reissue if/when it comes out. I believe it because I've seen music fans do it. And seeing is...well, you know.
The people here (fans of DA) have a vested interest in funding Terry's music. Anyone who spends any time on this board understands that, and most likely, if they share their music, are going to share LP rips or CD copies with people who are likely to buy a reissue of the same LP's.
Let me say here that I've made purchases from the webstore and at shows to support Terry and/or Mike Roe specifically, not because I simply wanted the product. For example, if Mike allows me to tape a show, and then releases the show on CD, I would still buy it. I wouldn't hesitate.
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04-10-2008 12:43 |
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John Foxe
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Fans want to hear the good things that you write, not everything that pops into your mind...
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04-10-2008 16:29 |
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Jerry Davison
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-30-2005
Posts: 846
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| quote: |
Originally posted by MarkyMark77
So, Jerry...
Is there any chance of any Jacob's Trouble reissues? |
Not likely. I recently heard that KMG is in the process of being sold off (I assume that would include all the Frontline TST/Eddies/DA stuff as well) to anyone interested. Hopefully someone who appreciates the value of what they would be buying will snatch it up and re-release everything, including making it all available for digital downloads via iTunes, etc.
Obviously, if there were immediate plans for a reissue, I would hope there wouldn't be a lot of illegal downloading of our stuff. But the fact of the matter is you can't even find JT stuff on Limewire for free.
So in the meantime it behooves me as an artist with no other means available to me to keep my music in the public eye (or ear, as it were) to make my music readily available to anyone and everyone even if it's free. Otherwise, JT will soon be long forgotten and there would be no point in reissuing anything anyway because we would have no one left who would even know who we were to buy it. In other words, it would actually make more money for me in the long run to give my stuff away now in the hopes of attracting new fans or hanging on to the old ones while I wait patiently for someone to give a DAmb.
One important factor that differentiates me from the other artists being discussed: I no longer depend on my music as a source of income. However it could be argued that Randy no longer depends on much of his earlier music for income either since neither he nor anyone else barely acknowledges its existence, much less plans on making it available for others to hear. I know I'm in the minority here but I honestly think that in the case of BTGATF if the hardcore fans don't continue to circulate it it may disappear altogether one day. What better way to gauge if something deserves a reissue than the demand for it among fans?
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04-10-2008 17:38 |
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jyroflux
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 02-23-2007
Posts: 631
Location: Southern California
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That was spot-on Jerry. 
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da
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04-10-2008 17:55 |
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RoxxRegime
Unsullied Affiche
Registration Date: 03-09-2008
Posts: 39
Thread Starter 
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Wow. I'm pretty new to this board, but I used to post on some other Christian rock boards...and I applaud all of you for keeping the discussion on such a friendly level! On other boards, discussions like these tend to degenerate to name calling
One thing that plays into all of this is that, while I do purchase a few things here and there on iTunes (mainly things that I'm only a marginal fan of), with stuff I love (like DA, Stonehill, Kiss, Queen, etc.), I love having all of the packaging. Even in these days of digital music, I still have most of that stuff on vinyl (how can anything beat reading the Alarma Chronicles on the big sheet that came in the record?). CD's aren't as good as vinyl in that respect, but they beat downloads... especially with things like the AC boxed set (which I've never even seen, only heard about).
So, who owns which DA releases? Does anyone know if there is a possibility of a AC re-release?
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04-10-2008 18:19 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
To me, the ease of current technology makes it less likely that those who are not ardent fans of a band will actually buy something they got illegally. |
Exactly true, unfortunately... and, many seem to have no idea they're actually doing anything wrong.
*Most* fans that we are familiar with will buy something even if they get an illegal copy. That includes most of you most likely. We know you guys will not try to cheat Terry or Mike out of anything.
You might be surprised however by how many emails or letters we get from people saying things like "I was going to order such and such CD, but I found it on this other website instead." This is part of a fan letter... not meant to be mean, or rubbing it in the band's face that they got cheated out of money. Its like they really don't realize that thats what they're doing. Its like the only important thing is that they got the music - they don't see any difference in how they get it.
And, when we're talking about an indie artist or band... each one of those sales is a big hit on the pocket book. Thats why Terry wrote that letter to the fans not too long ago.
If an artist is fine with the fans bootlegging their own material.. then I'm fine with it too. But, not all artists are fine with it and I wish every fan would be supportive of their wishes.
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04-10-2008 18:22 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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Originally posted by RoxxRegime
So, who owns which DA releases? Does anyone know if there is a possibility of a AC re-release? |
Nearly everything is owned by KMG... theres only a handful that are owned by other people. Terry's looking into Jerry's news about everything being sold off... it'd be nice if we could get it back in Terry's hands. They probably want a fortune for it all though.
The Alarma Chronicles stuff will be available again eventually. We've been trying to move through album by album and do some kind of reissue. Things got held up a little on Horrendous Disc.. Larry's passing added to that hold up obviously. But, more reissues will be coming.. it won't end with Darn Floor.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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04-10-2008 18:25 |
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RoxxRegime
Unsullied Affiche
Registration Date: 03-09-2008
Posts: 39
Thread Starter
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Actually, the KMG records website seems to have disappeared.......
How cool would it be if Terry was able to get the rights back? That would be awesome!
About those fan letters -- that's just so weird to me. I always consider being a fan a two way street... it's a relationship with the artist. They give me music, I compensate them. I wonder how those fans who wrote in to you would feel about working a few days with no pay at their jobs...it's the same thing.
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04-10-2008 18:47 |
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DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
Posts: 1,817
Location: Red Bank, New Jersey
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It would be a lovely thing if Terry got the rights back... But the cynic in me says the remnants of KMG are hungry for cash and won't part with collateral without wads of it.
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04-10-2008 19:19 |
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Jerry Davison
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-30-2005
Posts: 846
Location: Atlanta, GA
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I think it's an excellent point that the reissues offer something illegal downloads don't: the package. Knowing that a reissue is in essence in competition with itself makes it all the more important that it adds some value for the purchaser. It's almost as if you are only shelling out the money for the packaging and a clean conscience (which are big deals, don't get me wrong). Ironically, the music itself is technically free, since the purchaser could theoretically get that somewhere else. This is a weird time to be a musician. But a fun time to be a music fan. 
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04-10-2008 19:25 |
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Jerry Davison
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-30-2005
Posts: 846
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| quote: |
Originally posted by RoxxRegime
Actually, the KMG records website seems to have disappeared.......
How cool would it be if Terry was able to get the rights back? That would be awesome!
About those fan letters -- that's just so weird to me. I always consider being a fan a two way street... it's a relationship with the artist. They give me music, I compensate them. I wonder how those fans who wrote in to you would feel about working a few days with no pay at their jobs...it's the same thing. |
I asked this person who told me all this if it would be possible for us to just buy our (Jacob's Trouble) stuff but they seemed to believe they would not parcel it out like tat. They want to sell the whole package together.
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04-10-2008 19:26 |
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DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Jerry Davison
I think it's an excellent point that the reissues offer something illegal downloads don't: the package. Knowing that a reissue is in essence in competition with itself makes it all the more important that it adds some value for the purchaser. It's almost as if you are only shelling out the money for the packaging and a clean conscience (which are big deals, don't get me wrong). Ironically, the music itself is technically free, since the purchaser could theoretically get that somewhere else. This is a weird time to be a musician. But a fun time to be a music fan.
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See, I'm kind of a packaging nut. I had the Alarma CDs separately, long before the bookset. But I also bought the bookset. I still buy vinyl for the same reason (BTW The Raconteurs "Consolers Of The Lonely" is suh-weet!) but a lot of music fans couldn't care less about packaging. This month, iTunes replaced Wal-Mart as the number one venue for sales of music, replacing physical items entirely.
I see a point there. Because modern pop is shifting back to a Singles model, why bother with packaging and, eventually, why bother with albums, paying exorbitant fees to artists for album sides the market has little to no interest in? Downloading is perfect for them but not for me.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by DwDunphy: 04-10-2008 19:38.
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04-10-2008 19:37 |
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Dr Rich
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 9,986
Location: Hoverkrafti im është plot me ngjala.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Jerry Davison
I asked this person who told me all this if it would be possible for us to just buy our (Jacob's Trouble) stuff but they seemed to believe they would not parcel it out like tat. They want to sell the whole package together. |
I would love a "Door into Summer" vinyl re-issue.
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04-10-2008 20:56 |
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MarkyMark77
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 10-11-2002
Posts: 512
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| quote: |
| I would love a "Door into Summer" vinyl re-issue. |
That's the one I was thinking of. When I first saw it, I thought it was so cool that a Christian band covered both a Monkees song ("The Door Into Summer") and a Beatles song ("Tell Me What You See"), and the originals are great, too. Reissue that sucker on vinyl!!!!
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| Fans want to hear the good things that you write, not everything that pops into your mind... |
Is this a subtle hint to keep my posts a little shorter?
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04-10-2008 21:50 |
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MarkyMark77
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 10-11-2002
Posts: 512
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| They want to sell the whole package together. |
So, you could theoretically buy the Brainstorm catalog? Or does this mean the WHOLE catalog, every master that they own. Buying the Brainstorm catalog wouldn't be a bad purchase at all, IMHO!
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04-10-2008 21:52 |
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Dr Rich
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Registration Date: 03-15-2002
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My lotto winnigs (when I win the big one) will go toward such a purchase!
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04-10-2008 22:12 |
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