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For starters, they don't sell boots of DA. They sold one counterfeit DA album... fans did buy it and complained because they didn't realize they were buying cheap ripoffs. Thats how we found out about it. According to RR's accounting of those titles, pretty much everyone that purchased them hated them. They do however sell numerous bootlegs and counterfeits of other artists.

Answer this with a yes or no. If John "longtime fan" Smith decided to take his DA live bootleg tapes out of his garage, burn CDRs and set up an internet store selling them for cash (any amount) so that they could save up and buy a new boombox... against the wishes of DA and with zero money going to DA. You would be ok with it morally and ethically?

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quote:
Originally posted by audiori
Answer this with a yes or no. If John "longtime fan" Smith...


Is he any relation to Joe the Plumber?

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quote:
Originally posted by audiori
For starters, they don't sell boots of DA. They sold one counterfeit DA album... fans did buy it and complained because they didn't realize they were buying cheap ripoffs. Thats how we found out about it. According to RR's accounting of those titles, pretty much everyone that purchased them hated them. They do however sell numerous bootlegs and counterfeits of other artists.

Answer this with a yes or no. If John "longtime fan" Smith decided to take his DA live bootleg tapes out of his garage, burn CDRs and set up an internet store selling them for cash (any amount) so that they could save up and buy a new boombox... against the wishes of DA and with zero money going to DA. You would be ok with it morally and ethically?


like i said.. i've BOUGHT bootlegs of artists.

morally and ethically? not seeing a real issue... wouldn't be much of a market for it though, since there are tons of them available for free.

now... burned copies of released studio albums, or officially released live albums, i have issues with, if they are being sold.

unreleased albums are another one i don't have a big problem with.... i have quite a few of those too...

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In my opnion, there is never an excuse for someone to attempt to make money off of an artists work - outside of the legal right to do so. (Before anyone mentions it - no, reselling a legally purchased CD is not outside of your legal rights). Especially considering the fact that we know these bands are against that and have expressed that view on many occasions over the years.

In fact, they are actively shutting anyone down that is attempting to do just that... why would any fan want to go against those wishes? Even if you justify it somehow in your own mind, doesn't your love for these bands make it impossible to knowingly go against their wishes for their own music? Especially when we've gotten to know them on such a personal level over the years?

They have been very lenient when it comes to trading live tapes and things like that, even though its still technically illegal. They're generally ok with it as long as they get a copy (which doesn't always happen) and its not sold. I don't know, maybe this is just a case of them giving an inch and a few fans wanting a mile.

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quote:
Originally posted by audiori
In my opnion, there is never an excuse for someone to attempt to make money off of an artists work - outside of the legal right to do so. (Before anyone mentions it - no, reselling a legally purchased CD is not outside of your legal rights). Especially considering the fact that we know these bands are against that and have expressed that view on many occasions over the years.

In fact, they are actively shutting anyone down that is attempting to do just that... why would any fan want to go against those wishes? Even if you justify it somehow in your own mind, doesn't your love for these bands make it impossible to knowingly go against their wishes for their own music? Especially when we've gotten to know them on such a personal level over the years?

They have been very lenient when it comes to trading live tapes and things like that, even though its still technically illegal. They're generally ok with it as long as they get a copy (which doesn't always happen) and its not sold. I don't know, maybe this is just a case of them giving an inch and a few fans wanting a mile.


i'd prefer that stuff were given away for free. chances are the person selling it doesn't have much, if anything invested. but if they choose to sell it, that's on them.

much like mallonee's "driving the nails"..... sometimes things get out that artists don't want to get out.... best bet is to do what mallonee did, and release it themselves, and make sure they get in on the money.

i think there's a couple of DA examples of that, too... where the music is out there.... terry oughta release it and get paid.

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1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by larryl: 10-17-2008 10:25.

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those buy it now deals on both those sites, are pipe dreams.

there's a reason you can always find them there for those prices.... meanwhile, you can buy the same thing in a regular auction for under$10....

same with knott stuff, and 77s.

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1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

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If you've been following things for a while now you know that there is an effort to bootleg the bootleggers. There have been several things released in recent months that have moved closer to doing just that. (Of course, many bootleggers are still offering them for free - which shows that in many cases, simply making the music available is not the motive) The problem is, it can't be done instantly.. we've had a half a dozen releases in the last few months but we can't really do it faster than that.

I guess its easier to be fast about it when you can just break any law you don't like.

quote:

...if they choose to sell it, that's on them.


It certainly is.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/DA-Vox-Humana-CD-198...p3286.m20.l1116

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that looks like the stunt re-issue ..collectors edition?
I gotta dig up mine!

note the questions at the bottom- integrity LIVES!!!!!!



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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by jiminy: 10-17-2008 10:37.

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Looks like the old Hearbeat reissue.. but the counterfeits look like that too, so its hard to say.

Folks can get it for $10 right here in the DA store...

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quote:
Originally posted by audiori
If you've been following things for a while now you know that there is an effort to bootleg the bootleggers. There have been several things released in recent months that have moved closer to doing just that. (Of course, many bootleggers are still offering them for free - which shows that in many cases, simply making the music available is not the motive) The problem is, it can't be done instantly.. we've had a half a dozen releases in the last few months but we can't really do it faster than that.

I guess its easier to be fast about it when you can just break any law you don't like.

quote:

...if they choose to sell it, that's on them.


It certainly is.


how about the unreleased stuff that is floating around?

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1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

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Like old live tapes? Some of it is crap. Anything worthwhile will be released eventually if we have copies of it available to us.

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OK.

There's definitely some worthwhile unreleased material.

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Thats the entire goal of the Deluxe Reissue series. Its taking longer to do them that we had all hoped, but the desire is to put everything worthwhile as a bonus disc for each album... anything thats longer might be released separately.

These lesser expensive reissues we're doing (like Hodgepodge, etc) are also a way of picking off a few of those oddball tracks that don't make sense somewhere else.

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quote:
Originally posted by larryl
OK.

There's definitely some worthwhile unreleased material.


There is a few unreleased studio recordings that float around, that we and Terry would like to use so that Terry gets some money off of them. The problem is we and Terry have to do things the honest legal way. Which means we have to negotiate with the paries that own the material. That can take time.

Here's a reminder of what Terry wrote a little while ago;

Dear Supporters and friends,

This personal letter to you is something I've intended to write for some time now, but have been hesitant to do so for various reasons. It addresses a controversy and an ongoing fan debate that I would have preferred to stay out of, but which seems to me now to be a crucial problem which I sincerely believe needs to be personally addressed.

A few months back I had a conversation with Mike Roe in which he confirmed something I'd suspected for quite some time. "You know Terry, many of our fans are under the mistaken impression that guys like us are rolling in money, and that we are living the romantic and carefree lives of rock stars." The operative word here is "many." Certainly most of you know that this couldn't be further from the truth and scoff at such an absurdity. I've been aware for some time of the ongoing debate about file sharing, and the various rationales concerning the duplication of my work within our little circle of supporters. I don't plan on addressing to any great extent every aspect of this issue, and I don't expect that this letter will necessarily end the debate, but I am hoping that the more thoughtful among you will at least prayerfully consider what is being said. The essential uniqueness of our relationship (it seems to me) is the real thing to consider when taking a position in this important matter. If you were simply "fans/consumers" and I was just another greedy artist, then I wouldn't expect my appeal to you to fall on anything but deaf ears. I consider you to be much more than this, however, and I trust you see me as more than just a singer/songwriter. Our relationship goes far beyond these limited descriptions. I believe we have a great and enduring bond… that we are in fact a family.

This being said, let me get to the pragmatics of the matter. It is essential that you understand that you are directly responsible for the financing of many of our projects, and most certainly any future projects. We don't have big budget record companies supporting us any more. Christian radio virtually ignores us. Christian bookstores, for all intents and purposes, don't stock us. In other words, we exist solely on the basis of your financial support directly through our web sales. This makes you an essential partner with us. Without you, our little store shuts down and our output grinds to a halt. For me, production work is rare and touring is sporadic. My personal income is wildly inconsistent, and although in most of my past years I've been able to make a moderate living, it's getting tougher and tougher to do so. In fact, I'm fortunate most months if I can pay my rent on time. Don't get me wrong. This isn't a "whoa is me" plea. I am blessed beyond measure in countless ways, and God is indeed good. You guys have been loyal and in many cases sacrificial. The web-store is very much like a ma and pop store, in that it is totally dependent upon our loyal customers. Your willingness to sometimes pay a little more for our stuff than you do for the stuff offered by the conglomerate down the street, is what keeps us in business. Recently, here in my town, a little ma and pop corner video/dvd store was forced to shut down because of Blockbuster. I loved that little store. They had movies I could never get anywhere else, and now they're gone. The same happened to a wonderfully atmospheric local family owned and operated coffee shop. Starbucks moved in and ate it up. I believe that like that little video store, we offer you guys something you can't get anywhere else, and I want to continue to do so. Without your loyal patronage, the bottom line is, we're finished. This is the absolute reality of the situation. When you, the fan and supporter, buys something from the web-store you are participating in something much more profound than a simple commercial transaction. I think the music we produce really does mean something to people. At times it is life altering and in this sense it is truly a "ministry." You know that this is true because you probably wouldn't be a part of this little circle of loyal supporters and struggling artists unless the music hadn't spoken to you in a unique, spiritually rich and imaginative way. I can't do any of it without you. I'm not asking you to "send money and support the ministry with your tax-deductible gifts." I'm asking you to purchase generously from the web-store and in return you'll continue to receive the very best music that our musical family has to offer. This is music that costs real dollars to make (musicians, engineers, manufacturers, etc.), and before we make even the slightest profit, those bills must get paid.

Someone recently drew my attention to a fans complaint about the cost of our CDs; "I pay less for a Wallflowers CD, and they're a major band!" I really had to laugh at the utter naïveté of this complaint. It is precisely because they are a major band that a Wallflowers album costs less to purchase. The more CD's that are manufactured, the lower the cost, and since our CD's are limited in quantity, we naturally pay a higher price for manufacturing. Anyone going into a bookstore knows that the new John Grisham paperback is going to be four or five dollars less than say a paperback edition of Graham Green's "Power and the Glory" because of the manufacturing ratio. Let me say that whenever it's possible to keep the costs down for the fans, we have been more than willing to do so, and that is why the decision was made to keep "Mr. Buechner's Dream" at a single CD price, (despite it being a double CD), even though it cost us more to record and manufacture than most anything else we've created so far. I wish we could make this kind of sacrifice every time we put out a record, but unfortunately the simple economics of the situation dictate otherwise. The fact is, our debts have often been greater than our profits, and we are always playing "catch up." I'm not being melodramatic when I say we've come several times to what appeared to be the end of the road. God willing, and with your ongoing support, we will continue to offer you new music, DVDs, box-sets, limited editions, etc. But again, we need your help desperately. Most of our profits go right back into doing new things. In other words, you are literally financing the next project.

Finally, let me say that the vast majority of you have been loyal and generous fans, friends, and supporters for which this letter is fairly unnecessary. You have gone beyond the call of duty, and words cannot express my personal indebtedness to you. You have been gracious and understanding when we've hit a few snags, and you are wise to the economics of our situation and have the keen sense that this is indeed a "partnership" that goes far beyond a merely commercial enterprise. God bless you all, and a thousand 'thank yous' for all that you've helped us accomplish thus far. Because of you and God's faithfulness, we will continue to do what we do, and do it better than ever. I'm convinced it's going to be a fun and fulfilling year, and I want you to know that we've got a few surprises for you along the way.
Bless you in advance for making it possible.

Yours Under the Mercy,
Terry Scott Taylor

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jiminy
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hmph!
you excluded the link to the free downloads I see!
Big Grin

really - it is a give and take-
Terry did mention-

"I don't plan on addressing to any great extent every aspect of this issue, and I don't expect that this letter will necessarily end the debate,"

and it hasn't .

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As for physical CD vs download numbers, everything put on itunes by these bands so far has not been worth it. They have performed very poorly in that area. Most of their fans are middle aged, less than tech savy people.

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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J


As for physical CD vs download numbers, everything put on iTunes by these bands so far has not been worth it. They have performed very poorly in that area. Most of their fans are middle aged, less than tech savvy people.


Perhaps, but I think there's something to be said about people just not knowing something exists in a particular area. When you go to the iTunes page, you're virtually assaulted by images of Taylor Swift, Usher, and L'il Wayne. Your initial reaction is most likely to believe, no, I will not find these artists here. If older fans know something is absolutely, positively there, the numbers won't be overwhelmingly positive but I'm certain it wouldn't be wasted effort either.

Having said that, an older audience still, to a degree, respects the conceptual value of the "package", the collection including art, bonus tracks, liner notes and such. It is an inherited interest. As an older fan myself, I'd appreciate Terry's feedback on the process of writing and recording Darn Floor Big Bite. There's nothing from L'il Wayne's Tha Carter III that needs much expounding upon or interpretation.

There's a place for physical product, certainly. But as T. Bone Burnett said in an interview (paraphrasing), "I'm doing my best to keep high fidelity alive, even if I'm the last holdout. But I gotta tell you that when I go, it probably goes with me. The digital realm is that pervasive, but I fight my good fight..."
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Even in the case of the Choir's download page.. where its right there on the artists website.. its barely worthwhile from what I've been told. The vast majority of the emails and letters we receive from fans looking for older albums are looking for CDs, not downloads. Thats not to say that theres no interest in making certain things available that way... its just not, at least at this time, a huge market for these bands.


I do think the market is changing, but I'm not sure that any of those changes are permanent. I mean we are seeing a new generation of people that cares very little about album covers and liner notes. But something tells me that interest will come back eventually. The mp3/ipod thing is almost what happened in the early days of rock and roll where singles were the main focus of record labels. Then, the Beatles and other artists made LPs "cool" with a lot of attention paid to artwork and things like that. All it'll take is for another artist to start using packaging to its fullest potential and it will probably reignite that interest. I think we're already seeing the start of that with things like U2's new reissue series (which by the way seems very similar to DA's Deluxe 2 disc reissue series... Big Grin )

But, anyway... back to Darn Floor..

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quote:
Originally posted by audiori
I do think the market is changing, but I'm not sure that any of those changes are permanent. I mean we are seeing a new generation of people that cares very little about album covers and liner notes. But something tells me that interest will come back eventually. The mp3/ipod thing is almost what happened in the early days of rock and roll where singles were the main focus of record labels. Then, the Beatles and other artists made LPs "cool" with a lot of attention paid to artwork and things like that. All it'll take is for another artist to start using packaging to its fullest potential and it will probably reignite that interest.



The poop I've been hearing is that several artists want to go away, not only from physical product, but from iTunes and institute a subscription service kind of thing. You subscribe for a year and within that year download anything you want from the service and as much as you want.

It sounds implausible as a single weekend, two pots of black coffee and an extra-cushy seat would be enough to render the experiment unprofitable... But bands believe it's the only way left to monetize attainable music since, let's be honest, people are already doing the coffee/cushions/weekend thing and downloading for free.
11-08-2008 13:05 DwDunphy is offline Send an Email to DwDunphy Homepage of DwDunphy Search for Posts by DwDunphy Add DwDunphy to your Buddy List AIM Screen Name of DwDunphy: dunphyetc
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Daniel Amos Message Board » DA Related Discussion » General Discussion » Illegal Stuff and Downloads

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