 A question for Camrillo/Uncle Terry/Tim/whoever wants to chime in  |
Audiori J 
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I think some of this goes back to the heart of the question. I think its a weird mixture of ministry and business. If a person doesn't want to spread a Christian message then its pure business. But if a person is trying to express some Christian principles and truths either for the Church or for the world there is some element of ministry to it, but its still a business.
I think CCM should critique records however they choose, they are a magazine with the intent of informing the listener of this type of music. Personally I would probably like the things they rated low and dislike the things they rated high, but thats fine I don't think I am part of their taregt audience. Their target audience, if it happens to be youth groups and the more religious, then they may rate an artist such as Bruce Cockburn very low because they know its not music that would appeal to that crowd. That makes sense to me. Hevens Metal might give Imaginarium a bad review, because metal heads would probably not like the music. But a kids magazine might rate it really high and rate a metal album really low.
But because this is a business, and there does need to be sales to continue. Then my question would be how far should a band's own website go to allow negative reviews? Especially when a large chunk of their fan base goes to that website for information on new releases. What business in their right mind would want that unless they like the idea of going out of business? The second part of this, and thats the part that boggles my mind is; if this is a relatively small band, who has probably sacrificed bigger things just to continue doing what they do. Why would their own fans go to their website and tell other fans how much they dislike their albums or music? Where is the loyalty? I mean, this is a website for the people that like the music and want DA/Terry to continue. What obligation do we have to give the people that don't like their/his music and want to see it all fail a place to voice their opinion here? In my opinion, none.
My personal opinion is, I want to see them continue. I love this music greatly, it has meant a lot to me over my life. Its more to me than just a band. They have been part of my life and my developement as a Christian. This is why I volunteered to support them in the business side of things, so their ministry could continue. I hate to see anything jeapordise it. Even if I didn't work for them, I would never go to their website and post "such and such album is no good people shouldn't buy it" or "they should just quit." I believe that spirit is one that intends to hurt, and if that is the intention then they are not a fan and they don't belong here.
I think this is all different than saying, "I like Mutt more then Island Dreams. " Or "Instrumental albums don't do anything for me." Or "I prefer the country albums over the rock stuff." Thats opinion, but its not vicious. Its a matter of taste and understandable. I think people are free to voice a negative opinion, write a negative review, whatever they want to do. But a website dedicated to that band is not obligated to have it displayed on their pages.
Tennapel used to have in his board signature a quote that said "I hate doug tennapel" by some moron that frequented his board. That guy was banned. Doug doesn't have to put up with that crap in his own house. They guy kept trying to come back, and I ask the question "why?" He doesn't like Doug Tennapel, whats he want to do at his website other than attack?
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-22-2007 18:13 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
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Location: Missouri
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What you're talking about is closer to this....
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Originally posted by Audiori J
I think this is all different than saying, "I like Mutt more then Island Dreams. " Or "Instrumental albums don't do anything for me." Or "I prefer the country albums over the rock stuff." Thats opinion, but its not vicious. Its a matter of taste and understandable. |
There have been people that have went so far as to tell everyone else not to buy a certain release.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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03-22-2007 19:37 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
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Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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Hey... it's only rock-n-roll, but I like it!
Not to put too fine a point on it.
The Faith is something you live, not perform.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:00 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
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"You're not making Jesus better, you're making rock worse!"
~Hank Hill
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:02 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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03-22-2007 21:23 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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With all due respect to Mr. Hill, something tells me he never heard DA, 77s, Steve Taylor, the Lost Dogs, Adam Again, Undercover, Mark Heard and a bunch of other stuff thats considered Christian rock....
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03-22-2007 21:35 |
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dennis
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Registration Date: 09-19-2002
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| I know what you're saying, but: |
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Take The 77s for example.
Mike Roes takes the history of Rock from folks like the Carter Family, Hank Williams and to Sun Records and onward with it's blues and gospel and soul and boogie woogie that showed the whole of life. Songs about work, family, life and religion are a part of the tradition of Rock and Roll.
The tradition of Johnny Cash.
Jerry Lee Lewis.
Elvis.
Carl Perkins.
Little Richard.
The great and noble tradition of Rock and Roll.
"CCM" is a another animal altogether.
One that holds little interest for me.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:48 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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OK, how do you define "CCM." If the 77s are not CCM, then you can't just include everyone on a Christian or CCM label because the 77s were there (Word).
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03-22-2007 21:56 |
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dennis
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For the most part CCM has an agenda.
Once you have an agenda, you are no longer speaking from the heart.
You are a marketing rep.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 22:03 |
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ladrtrk55
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 03-09-2007
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Gee Manelli Christmas, we are making this far too complicated. Just like we make the Gospel and living for Christ too complicated.
You play a guitar.
You have a couple friends who play bass and drums.
Together you make some music.
You sell some records.
Maybe you're good enough to make a living selling your music.
Maybe you're not and you have to work at the factory all week and play the weekends.
My point is nobody should be subsidizing Christian music. For sure not the Church. It should stand alone in the market place.
The responsibilty of the consumer is a subject for another day.
(re: "Fearful Symetry" on e-bay)
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Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, who will go for us?"
"Here I am, send me!"
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03-22-2007 22:34 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. I have a lot of CDs in my collection that I would consider CCM, but that doesn't mean I'm listening to Carman.
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03-22-2007 23:00 |
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ladrtrk55
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 03-09-2007
Posts: 365
Location: Navasota, Tx
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My point. You bought it because you liked it.
I'm not ragging on CCM. If not for them I would never have found out about the whole Christian Metal scene or a band from close by called One Bad Pig. God Bless 'em. They have a purpose. They also have to pay the bills.
I judged the Christian metal scene AND the OBP guys on their own.
Some bands came up measured, weighed, and wanting.....some made a difference....and some, like One Bad Pig, were for real.
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Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, who will go for us?"
"Here I am, send me!"
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03-22-2007 23:10 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
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The problem is, which is what I was alluding to, some artists have traded finacial stability for expressing their faith truthfully. Atists like the ones we all love could of said forget the fans that get something special from my music I want money and made just regular rock n roll, sell out. But they didn't, they have been faithful both to their calling and their fanbase.
If their system was run strictly as a business I think it would have been bankrupt ages ago. We probably wouldn't have the Alarma Chronicles, Darn Floor, or Mr Buenchers Dream. It has taken sacrifices from Terry, the band and support people to keep it going. They have stories going back to the 70s. The only reason its all still going is because the band loves the fans and the fans love the band. They have always had support volinteers like Tom Gulotta, Steve Johnson, etc.
DA, the 77s, the Lost Dogs are CCM like it or not. Contemporary Christian Music is a genre that is defined by people making modern music that expresses their faith. Thats exactly what they are doing. That alone can hurt a career from a business standpoint. The world hates it when people express their faith. They will make fun of the music.
But to take it even further, they also are not fully accepted by the CCM industry because they create something that they want to create and express the way they want to express. I believe the CCM industry as a whole has for business reasons left some artists behind in favor of marketable young hip groups whos message is so obvious the average youth group will get it. Thats done I think, because its a business and that is their target audience, teenagers.
Currently these guys have no big label or marketing group behind them, they rely solely on the fans. The fans keep them alive and going. This website was created for the purpose of support, both financial and marketing support. The idea is to assist them with generating the needed funds to continue making music. The messageboard is here for those who love the band and love their music. Without support from the small loyal fanbase, we won't see another Darn Floor, MBD, or whatever the next DA album would end up being.
As I said, I don't think anyone has a problem with fans expressing which albums they like better. This band has changed styles 30 times, there is going to be this disparity among the fanbase. Everyone has their favorite. As someone who helped create this site and its purpose, I have no obligation to let anyone come to it and damage the purpose of its existence. This is the place for supporting them. If someone says they shouldnt still be making albums or that their albums are bad or whatever they can find their own place to say it, it will not be here. That is a business decision to support a career that is faith based.
Do I feel people can write negative reviews? Sure anywhere they want, on their websites or in their magazines. We have included some here at times as my brother said, we've not stopped fans from saying they like certain albums over others. But being the administrators of the messageboards and webmasters of the websites, its our job to try and determine if something crosses the line into actually hurting things. Under that circumstance we have no obligation to the person expressing it to let it be here. Our obligation is to the band and the reason the website was created, to help them continue.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-23-2007 10:38 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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03-23-2007 11:15 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
The problem is, which is what I was alluding to, some artists have traded finacial stability for expressing their faith truthfully. Atists like the ones we all love could of said forget the fans that get something special from my music I want money and made just regular rock n roll, sell out. But they didn't, they have been faithful both to their calling and their fanbase.
If their system was run strictly as a business I think it would have been bankrupt ages ago. We probably wouldn't have the Alarma Chronicles, Darn Floor, or Mr Buenchers Dream. It has taken sacrifices from Terry, the band and support people to keep it going. They have stories going back to the 70s. The only reason its all still going is because the band loves the fans and the fans love the band. They have always had support volinteers like Tom Gulotta, Steve Johnson, etc.
DA, the 77s, the Lost Dogs are CCM like it or not. Contemporary Christian Music is a genre that is defined by people making modern music that expresses their faith. Thats exactly what they are doing. That alone can hurt a career from a business standpoint. The world hates it when people express their faith. They will make fun of the music.
But to take it even further, they also are not fully accepted by the CCM industry because they create something that they want to create and express the way they want to express. I believe the CCM industry as a whole has for business reasons left some artists behind in favor of marketable young hip groups whos message is so obvious the average youth group will get it. Thats done I think, because its a business and that is their target audience, teenagers.
Currently these guys have no big label or marketing group behind them, they rely solely on the fans. The fans keep them alive and going. This website was created for the purpose of support, both financial and marketing support. The idea is to assist them with generating the needed funds to continue making music. The messageboard is here for those who love the band and love their music. Without support from the small loyal fanbase, we won't see another Darn Floor, MBD, or whatever the next DA album would end up being.
As I said, I don't think anyone has a problem with fans expressing which albums they like better. This band has changed styles 30 times, there is going to be this disparity among the fanbase. Everyone has their favorite. As someone who helped create this site and its purpose, I have no obligation to let anyone come to it and damage the purpose of its existence. This is the place for supporting them. If someone says they shouldnt still be making albums or that their albums are bad or whatever they can find their own place to say it, it will not be here. That is a business decision to support a career that is faith based.
Do I feel people can write negative reviews? Sure anywhere they want, on their websites or in their magazines. We have included some here at times as my brother said, we've not stopped fans from saying they like certain albums over others. But being the administrators of the messageboards and webmasters of the websites, its our job to try and determine if something crosses the line into actually hurting things. Under that circumstance we have no obligation to the person expressing it to let it be here. Our obligation is to the band and the reason the website was created, to help them continue. |
i didn't mean to start another wildfire, but thanks for the clarifications. 
i think most of the newer people here would not write negative, bashing type reviews, but with new projects and re-releases in the works seeing the topic of rating CCM discussed certainly brought up this subject for me.
i agree real fans would not want the band to suffer financially because of any comments they might make that could be perceived as negative.
The rub comes when people feel they need to be completely honest and then their review is taken as negative. Maybe some simplified version of all this to the effect of "negative, bashing reviews detrimental to the purpose of the band will not be allowed" should be added as part of one of the " important stickys" in the review section? Maybe it's already there; i haven't looked in awhile.
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03-23-2007 11:59 |
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jollyholiday
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 244
Location: The Village
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
For the most part CCM has an agenda.
Once you have an agenda, you are no longer speaking from the heart.
You are a marketing rep. |
Doesn't everyone have an agenda when it comes down to it?
Jesus had (has) an agenda.
(And I'm not equating ccm's agenda with the agenda of Christ here).
Businesses have agendas, ministries, churches, families, professional sports teams, policemen/women, grocery store clerks, drunks... I think if you find yourself agendaless, it might be time to find one
If someone doesn't like ccm's agenda, no one is forcing anyone to participate in it. I still like to pick up the most recent Starflyer 59 when it releases and a handful of other projects. But no one is holding a gun to my head when a new Point of Grace album comes out.
-jolly
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03-23-2007 15:50 |
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