audiori 
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I guess on the surface, my problem with that idea is that it sounds (financially speaking) an awful lot like Warm&FIlled's DA/77s fan club situation years ago. Putting aside for a moment all of the flaws in the design of those clubs, financially it was only really a boost once a year... and certainly no more than it would have been to just release a CD. It may be ok as an "extra" though, but I can't imagine giving away everything that way. The fellas have too many bills spread out throughout the year.
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11-08-2008 13:09 |
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DwDunphy
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Registration Date: 08-18-2003
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Yeah, Warm & Filled attempted to do that with the clubs but I was never in the financial position to jump in, so I certainly wouldn't be amenable to some subscription Ponzi nonsense. It's a different thing though for those advocating it. They believe now that the album is a calling card, if anything, and the profit is solely from live performance.
Not good news for those that still love albums.
Worse news for amateurs who can't play out live.
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11-08-2008 18:52 |
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audiori
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... or for bands that don't tour much anymore.
Another problem with that for bands like the Dogs is that a lot of the extra cash they bring in on tour is from CD sales. So you remove that, and they'd have to raise their booking fees. That probably would do very little other than cut down the size of their tours.
Unfortunately, theres no one-size-fits-all solution to any of it. What works for some bands, doesn't work for others.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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11-08-2008 22:56 |
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voxrob
Sublime Brain Puppet
Registration Date: 09-02-2003
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I'm probably showing a certain amount of fogeyism, but having the rights and the music and the art but no physical thing loses something.
I used to go to record stores and buy LPs. I'd buy one or two -- or if I was really splurging, 3 or 4 -- and I would come home, play the first one, look at the album art which had a canvas that could be expressive, look at the lyrics and/or liner notes. Sometimes I was struck by who was playing on the album -- "wow a couple of the Grateful Dead were on some early Jefferson Starship", etc.. The record-buying experience was a big deal. It was special. Even the process of skipping or repeating a track by going to the turntable, lifting the arm and moving it had something to it.
CDs came along. They were more expensive so I was not able to experiment as much on something that look potentially interesting. Good sound quality. The liner notes were smaller -- and nowadays it's getting harder to read so I need to be more motivated. For the most part, forget about reading the lyrics. But there were still some memorable incidents -- going to get the Beatles CDs the first day they came out (3 and 4 at a pop), going at midnight to get the first Beatles Anthology (also picked up Springsteen). Going to Kaneohe to get the first DA CD -- about 2 weeks after the LP came out. The Springsteen Live box was special -- then again, that came in a package that looked like an LP.
Digital stuff. It's easier to get the old singles without buying 12-20 tracks I don't want. It's certainly fast and convenient. But it's not nearly as much of a big deal anymore. It's just another file on a hard drive and I got more than plenty of those. Is it a treat to buy something online? Well, it's nice to be able to try before you buy and, consequently, get only one or two cuts rather than the whole thing. But, at it's best, the thrill of iTunes shopping isn't even close to buying the actual physical thing. It's just like downloading everything else on the net.
Part of it is the experience of having something physical and tangible to look at when the music is playing. I'll bet session musicians really hate this -- they were close to being ignored before, now they are completely and totally unknown. Yeah, on "Blows Against the Empire", it says that one of the cuts is by Garcia, Hart, et al., but it's not the same thing -- and even though iTunes says that members of CS&N were involved, who knows where. And the groovy, early 70s art isn't there to put the album into a cultural context.
This is why I still buy the physical items. Especially when I really care about the sound quality.
Finally, it _is_ a headache having the stuff -- my house is full too. But having the faceless art on a hard drive seems like a poor substitute. So I keep winnowing through my CDs -- after all, I'm not going to be listening to some of these more than a couple more times... Maybe someone else would like them.
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11-10-2008 18:25 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
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well, I am sick of hearing the SOS no matter how true it may or may not be ... 
... almost to the point of not buying a CD in protest. 
i got a bunch of Led Zep and Stevie Ray Vaughn CDs really cheap lately and it got me thinking what I would really want is a way to own songs and artwork inc liner notes without having to actually own any CDs and paper. i.e. a way that I could still sell and transfer rights to, like a physical CD but it wouldn't take up any space. I could download the tunes and artwork in my choice of format. but if i got tired of it and wanted to sell it, i could do so. don't think that's quite out there yet and probably won't be?! i haven't read any itunes etc fineprint, but i'm pretty sure they're geared towards selling as many downloads as possible and them being non-transferable. don't have a clue what they do about artwork and liner notes.
i believe it was a Prince interview i read not too long ago where even he said there's just not money to be made in the music business anymore ... but then he's a jehovah's witness now so maybe his thinking is clouded? 
http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/10...iref=newssearch
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Of course, Prince is used to proving skeptics wrong. These days, he's regarded as a pioneer for artists' rights and known for releasing music over the Internet. But when he left his longtime label Warner Bros. nearly two decades ago after a protracted battle over his creative path, and abandoned major record labels to release music on his own, he left everyone -- from fans to musician insiders -- wondering if he had lost his mind.
In recent years, he has re-linked with major record labels like Sony and Universal Music Group to release his albums, but isn't sure any record is worth putting out in this era of piracy and illegal downloads. Though the book includes a CD, it contains no new songs, just classic hits and other songs from one of his signature jam sessions.
"Today, it's not realistic to expect to put out new music and profit from it. There's no point in trying to put new music out there and keep it from being (exploited)," he says.
And he now has disdain for the way the Internet has, in his view, subverted artists' rights.
"The powers that be are abusing the copyright infringement," he says. "You can't sample Steven Spielberg; you don't see his stuff up there, just old tapes of the Ohio Players, who can't afford to defend themselves."
But while Prince exudes hints of frustration, he's hardly bitter: These days, serenity and good-natured fun seem to be his mantra.
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11-10-2008 11:15 |
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audiori
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He's also rich.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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11-10-2008 11:25 |
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Mountain Fan
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11-10-2008 11:26 |
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joey
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 01-08-2003
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Location: the biggest fans are often the biggest critics ... sometimes taken as complaining ... get used to it. :P - mountain fan
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and with a free download of his music, you get what you pay for....
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11-10-2008 11:28 |
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Mountain Fan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by joey
and with a free download of his music, you get what you pay for....
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what you been smokin'? he actually is talented whether you like his music or not. (i mostly don't either)
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11-10-2008 11:36 |
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joey
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Location: the biggest fans are often the biggest critics ... sometimes taken as complaining ... get used to it. :P - mountain fan
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other than my own house i mostly only play music on my ipod....
the only physical cd i have bought in the last year is hgb....
and that was played once on my computer to make mp3s and then put away for safekeeping...
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11-10-2008 19:19 |
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PuP
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
This is how I feel about it, too.
Artwork is cool, but it is not the reason I buy music.
I would like to see all music on the Internet in some way that rewards the artist and the distributor and isn't in a format that can go obsolete (so I don't have to buy the album on cassette when the LP wears out then buy it on CD when the cassette wears out then buy it on iTunes when the CD gets scratched then buy it on ____.com when iTunes goes out of business then ...). It's not going to happen tomorrow, but I think it may happen sooner than we think.
Not to say someone couldn't release a collectible edition on vinyl with a booklet and gatefold artwork and a limited edition autographed poster and desktop wallpapers and a lapel pin or whatever. Nine Inch Nails did something like that with their Ghosts I-IV release. One price for mp3s only, other editions with physical media and collectible goodness at various prices.
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11-11-2008 07:44 |
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audiori
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. |
Interestingly, we're the same age and yet I bought tons of vinyl as a child... and quite a few 8-tracks. Thankfully, everyone around me had large vinyl collections as well.. so I could always hear what they were listening to even if my limited childhood budget kept me from purchasing something.
I eventually did make the switch to cassettes, but hated how tiny they were. Not only was it impossible to read the text, but a lot of times they even cut the cover artwork in half or shrunk it down to fit half the size of the cassette cover. I was happy to see CDs come along because it allowed artists to go back to the vinyl-style artwork.
__________________
"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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11-11-2008 09:52 |
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larryl
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Registration Date: 08-25-2003
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| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. |
Interestingly, we're the same age and yet I bought tons of vinyl as a child... and quite a few 8-tracks. Thankfully, everyone around me had large vinyl collections as well.. so I could always hear what they were listening to even if my limited childhood budget kept me from purchasing something.
I eventually did make the switch to cassettes, but hated how tiny they were. Not only was it impossible to read the text, but a lot of times they even cut the cover artwork in half or shrunk it down to fit half the size of the cassette cover. I was happy to see CDs come along because it allowed artists to go back to the vinyl-style artwork. |
i was surrounded by my parent's vinyl collection.... that's how i learned about hendrix, elvis, steppenwolf, and a host of other cool music. i didn't really hear anyone else's music....
you bought 8 tracks? wow. i mean... we were like 5 when they went away!!
i had vinyl.... mickey mouse and the chipmonks mainly.... i did love those chipmonks!!
i remember buying a few records... some alabama, a kenny rogers record... and i did have some 45's...... but not a lot of them.....
cassettes were what i mostly bought, once i started having my own money.
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1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."
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11-11-2008 10:02 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
some stuff on itunes has included a PDF of the album art... with full lyrics and liner notes.... i have found that to be very cool......
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. .i was just glad that CDs had bigger print than cassettes..... and you didn't have to fold the cover 400 times to get it in the case....
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
yep. that's pretty much it. i find art and info very important, but the more CDs i acquire, the less likely I am to buy any more. gotta figure out what to do with them all. probably will go back and see if there's anything i wanna sell before too long to free up some space. may try that swaptree thing.
amazon MP3s are non-DRM (can make as many copies for yourself as you want), but are non-transferable (you can't sell to someone else per agreement). i suspect itunes is the same way. anyone know for sure?
if i had more time, i would scan any CD artwork that I really liked and just put all the CDs away somewhere.
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11-11-2008 10:47 |
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larryl
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Registration Date: 08-25-2003
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
some stuff on itunes has included a PDF of the album art... with full lyrics and liner notes.... i have found that to be very cool......
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. .i was just glad that CDs had bigger print than cassettes..... and you didn't have to fold the cover 400 times to get it in the case....
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
yep. that's pretty much it. i find art and info very important, but the more CDs i acquire, the less likely I am to buy any more. gotta figure out what to do with them all. probably will go back and see if there's anything i wanna sell before too long to free up some space. may try that swaptree thing.
amazon MP3s are non-DRM (can make as many copies for yourself as you want), but are non-transferable (you can't sell to someone else per agreement). i suspect itunes is the same way. anyone know for sure?
if i had more time, i would scan any CD artwork that I really liked and just put all the CDs away somewhere. |
you don't even need to scan it... most of it is online......
iTunes automatically grabs the art for a lot of discs, and the one's it doesn't, i snag from where ever i see them in a google image search, and dump them in myself.
__________________
Ecclesiastes 1
1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."
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11-11-2008 10:49 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
some stuff on itunes has included a PDF of the album art... with full lyrics and liner notes.... i have found that to be very cool......
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. .i was just glad that CDs had bigger print than cassettes..... and you didn't have to fold the cover 400 times to get it in the case....
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
yep. that's pretty much it. i find art and info very important, but the more CDs i acquire, the less likely I am to buy any more. gotta figure out what to do with them all. probably will go back and see if there's anything i wanna sell before too long to free up some space. may try that swaptree thing.
amazon MP3s are non-DRM (can make as many copies for yourself as you want), but are non-transferable (you can't sell to someone else per agreement). i suspect itunes is the same way. anyone know for sure?
if i had more time, i would scan any CD artwork that I really liked and just put all the CDs away somewhere. |
you don't even need to scan it... most of it is online......
iTunes automatically grabs the art for a lot of discs, and the one's it doesn't, i snag from where ever i see them in a google image search, and dump them in myself. |
they have the complete art, not just the cover image? i really don't care that much about only having a cover image. i like the info inside much better than just the cover.
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11-11-2008 10:54 |
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larryl
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 08-25-2003
Posts: 3,554
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
some stuff on itunes has included a PDF of the album art... with full lyrics and liner notes.... i have found that to be very cool......
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. .i was just glad that CDs had bigger print than cassettes..... and you didn't have to fold the cover 400 times to get it in the case....
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
yep. that's pretty much it. i find art and info very important, but the more CDs i acquire, the less likely I am to buy any more. gotta figure out what to do with them all. probably will go back and see if there's anything i wanna sell before too long to free up some space. may try that swaptree thing.
amazon MP3s are non-DRM (can make as many copies for yourself as you want), but are non-transferable (you can't sell to someone else per agreement). i suspect itunes is the same way. anyone know for sure?
if i had more time, i would scan any CD artwork that I really liked and just put all the CDs away somewhere. |
you don't even need to scan it... most of it is online......
iTunes automatically grabs the art for a lot of discs, and the one's it doesn't, i snag from where ever i see them in a google image search, and dump them in myself. |
they have the complete art, not just the cover image? i really don't care that much about only having a cover image. i like the info inside much better than just the cover. |
well then, you should have to send the artist $2 and a S.A.S.E.
no... it's usually just the cover... sorry i misunderstood. you did say "artwork" though, which sort of implies cover art...
you can sometimes find more, but it takes more digging.
__________________
Ecclesiastes 1
1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."
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11-11-2008 10:58 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
some stuff on itunes has included a PDF of the album art... with full lyrics and liner notes.... i have found that to be very cool......
maybe it's because i am too young (34) to have ever bought a lot of vinyl.... but the art isn't that big a deal to me..... heck.. .i was just glad that CDs had bigger print than cassettes..... and you didn't have to fold the cover 400 times to get it in the case....
i was a liner note junky... but i just want the info... post it on the website somewhere, and i'm happy... |
yep. that's pretty much it. i find art and info very important, but the more CDs i acquire, the less likely I am to buy any more. gotta figure out what to do with them all. probably will go back and see if there's anything i wanna sell before too long to free up some space. may try that swaptree thing.
amazon MP3s are non-DRM (can make as many copies for yourself as you want), but are non-transferable (you can't sell to someone else per agreement). i suspect itunes is the same way. anyone know for sure?
if i had more time, i would scan any CD artwork that I really liked and just put all the CDs away somewhere. |
you don't even need to scan it... most of it is online......
iTunes automatically grabs the art for a lot of discs, and the one's it doesn't, i snag from where ever i see them in a google image search, and dump them in myself. |
they have the complete art, not just the cover image? i really don't care that much about only having a cover image. i like the info inside much better than just the cover. |
well then, you should have to send the artist $2 and a S.A.S.E.
no... it's usually just the cover... sorry i misunderstood. you did say "artwork" though, which sort of implies cover art...
you can sometimes find more, but it takes more digging. |
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11-11-2008 11:11 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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agree- I am shifting to everything digital.
vrob-
I do see yer point (being of the fogey persuasion meself.)
But LPS sure are cumbersome. Its like a lot of experiences that change with time. THe whole music industry was just peddling things diferent.
ONe great advantage now for audiophiles like me is we can hear SO much more now, the way music is accessible.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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11-10-2008 22:25 |
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