 Alarma! cd quality control... |
memo
Dark Steamy Cabbage
Registration Date: 07-18-2006
Posts: 10
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| Alarma! cd quality control... |
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Howdy, folks... my copy of the stunt records reiusse of DA's "Alarma!" has stopped working. I don't mean it's scratched or cracked... I mean the cd just skips like crazy, despite having no visual physical defects. It sits inside its little case most of the time, only taken out once in a while for a good listen. Audiophile friends of mine have warned me that this day would come... that "inferior quality" cd's would start to degrade enough that the data could not be accessed correctly... but I did not heed their warnings. Has anyone else had this problem? Is it just me or the actual batch of cd's? But more importantly, HOW CAN I GET MY MUSIC BACK? I miss these songs already. Is there
- a way to recover the lost data (i've tried multiple players, computers, etc. I've cleaned and polished...)
- any way a fellow fan can burn a copy (I can provide... photos? whatever... as proof of ownership if this is a legal issue)
any help is appreciated...
gracias
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07-24-2006 00:49 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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I have had no issues like this..
with Stunt or any other "second generation" works - from any company
(though I achive.most of my incoming music- for this very possible reason..)
Am sure you tried copying the disc?- or converting it to mp3 etc???
or is it truly dead in the water?.
that would surprise me.
I have been able to salvage "bad" tracks by converting (ripping) them..
thats all I can suggest.
know that some video/audio stores (Disc-go round-) will clean and buff CDs etc to remove skips..(like $2.00) but I've never had to do that, and frankly -would only use that as a last ditch effort.
Good luck~
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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07-24-2006 08:18 |
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Audiori J 
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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"any way a fellow fan can burn a copy (I can provide... photos? whatever... as proof of ownership if this is a legal issue)"
Technically, it would be illegal. Maybe Tim Chandler here could give a stamp of approval for a backup?
But, I am more curious about the fact that it won't play in multiple players and looks fine. There is no reason it should be considered an "inferior quality" CD. If you can physically not see any defects, there shouldn't be a reason why it wouldn't play. The alloy layer should be protected from oxidation, and the plastic should not degrade for a very long time.
CDs are written by burning tiny pits or holes in the polycrystalline structure of the silvery layer of alluminum alloy for CDs and an alloy of silver, indium, antimony and tellurium for CDRs. The non-crystalline amorphous phase (‘pits’), have a much lower reflectance than the remaining crystalline areas (‘lands’).This difference in reflectance allows the recorded data to be read by the laser in basically a binary format. Either the laser gets refelcted back or it doesn't. Often times you can hold a CD up to a light and see clear through it because of the tiny holes in the alloy layer.
The thin alloy layer is on the top surface of the disc under the usual paint and graphic. Scratching the top of the disc has a worse effect than scratching the bottom of the disc because you can actually scratch through the silver alloy layer. The bottom of the disc is the more protected area as the laser passes through the entire thickness of the clear plastic to the reflective surface. This is why some of those resurfacing tools tend to help by polishing the bottom of the disc to remove scuffs from the plastic surface.
One problem I have seen with CDRs is much like the tracking of a VCR, the alignment can sometimes be substandard. This usually renders a CDR unreadible by any other player except the one it was recorded in. But this should not be an issue with professional grade CDs. The CDR burning process is slightly different than a standard CD as well.
Technically, physically if you can see no issue with the disc there shouldn't be one. My first guess would be a CD players laser strength deteriorating, or the "tracking" becoming off but that should affect other discs. A trick used by Playstation enthusiats when their games stopped playing due to low laser strength was actually to put the game in and turn the playstation upside down. This allowed the laser to hang closer to the disc.
DVD players are often built to play DVD, DVD-Audio, SACD, WMA, .mp3, DVD-R, DVD-RW, .JPG, DivX, so their mechanics are better suited to adjust to any unusual issue. Trying the disc in not only other CD players is good, but try it in DVD players and game machines. Their hardware and software is often more robust.
Another thing you could try is a search for "CD data recovery", there are companies that offer recovery software. You might have to read up on a few to see if any certain software has audio disc capabilities. Such as;
http://www.surfpack.com/downloads/Digita...onal/30395.html
Or as Jiminy said maybe various ripping or duplication software could be tried as a means to create a copy.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2006 09:01 |
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bigdork.2
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 11-22-2004
Posts: 690
Location: posting slump
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i've seen this before...
I have a Stonehill cd that has visible holes in the metal layer that were not there originally. It wont play in a lot of players or it just stops suddenly, but I was able to rip it to mp3. It's the Until We Have Wings disc.
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07-24-2006 09:23 |
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tchandler
Daniel Amos
Registration Date: 03-22-2002
Posts: 1,061
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a backup or bumming a copy is fine by me. the man's already paid for the cd.
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07-24-2006 10:17 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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Unlike Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention they're not "only in it for the money" 
Of course Terry does jokingly say this in the interview clip on When Everyone Wore Hats bookset, disc 3. (Get it if you don't have it!)
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07-24-2006 11:21 |
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bigdork.2
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 11-22-2004
Posts: 690
Location: posting slump
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jiminy
the dorkster pic.......
yer aawesome! |
you, the photo taker is the aaawesommest
why are we addding lettters to words?
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can I be my own buddy?
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07-24-2006 12:33 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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| quote: |
Originally posted by tchandler
a backup or bumming a copy is fine by me. the man's already paid for the cd. |
There you go then. I believe the band owns Alarma if I am not mistaken.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2006 12:58 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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I have heard that even writing on CDs top layer can effect the CD, as well as storing in a damp area since the plastic is a lot thinner on that side and aluminum readily corrodes.
They sure beat LPs but they are nowhere near as permanent as initially touted. 
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07-24-2006 13:02 |
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voxrob
Sublime Brain Puppet
Registration Date: 09-02-2003
Posts: 87
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Not simply for this particular case, but I would like to understand a little more about such a problem -- as has been said, if the media looks to be in solid condition (both sides of the disc), with no markings, no scrapes, etc., this simply should not be happening -- there's no physical reason for it. How many different players did you try? I know that where discs are played can make a difference -- some CD players in computers can be a little hard on the disc. I've never heard of the "stronger" lasers in DVD players but it's possible I suppose (now -- DVDs -- that is one medium which really is very very fragile).
It's not just the DA CDs that might be difficult to replace (heh, but I still have the LPs). This kind of problem could be a bit frightening.
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07-24-2006 13:25 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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I don't know technically if a DVD players laser is stronger, but if a DVD player is mechanically and software ready to handle many types of discs it might be better suited to play a disc that won't play in another machine.
Often times laser strength is an issue in a laser that becomes weaker over time. It might be that the laser holding mechanism has become worn out, or even that there was some mechanical issue that damaged the diode itself. They are also susceptible to static electriity.
Some discs have the green or blue plastic for the underside, that is intended to maximize recording and playability.
Mechanics of CDs, CDRs, and CDRWs;
http://www.pcworldmalta.com/archive/iss48/cds.htm
http://www.askbobrankin.com/lifetime_of_a_cdrom_disk.html
Mechanics of CD players and laser diodes;
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_cdfaqd.html
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/cd-burner.htm
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2006 13:51 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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So that less condensation or oxidation occurs, it is recomended that plastics are stored in a "cool dry place". If oxide is allowed to form between the alluminum layer and the plastic on a CD, that might effect the reflectivity. But I would imagine' if this were a big issue after a while it would cause the alluminum to actually seperate and peel off the disc. Heat can cause this to happen, I would not leave CDs or DVDs on top of a DVD player for example, or inside a player for long periods.
When it comes to other forms of recordings this is also an issue. Reel to reels manufactured before the 80's can actually hold condensation which can ruin the tape if played, it will seperate because the condensation or oxidation is between the recording layer and backing layers of tape. There is a baking process required to restore the tape and make it playable once again.
Traveling Wilburys
» Cool Dry Place
Well I woke up this morning
The place was such a reck
I couldn't reach the bathroom
Thought I'd better clear the deck.
I tried to call the lawyer
And ask him what to do
He referred me to his doctor
Who referred me back to you
And when you checked the manual
You kept in side the case
It said 'put it in a cool dry place'
I drove around the city
Looking for a room
That was high above the water
Where my things could be in tune
There was noone to help me
Nobody even cared
I had to got through hell
To get those things up there
I paid my first subscription
Then I joined the idle race
and they said 'Store it in a cool dry place'
I got guitar, basses, amplifiers and drums
Accordions and Mandolis and things that sometimes hum
Cymbals and Harmonicas, capos by the score
And lots of things in boxes laying all around the floor
Some places they get mildew
And others get too hot.
Some places are so damp that
Everything you got just rots
All kinds of condensation
Direct result of rain
There's not much compensation
When everything's been stained.
Some have sentimental value that
Cannot be erased
Go store it in a cool dry place
We got solids and acoustics
And some from flowered board
And some are trimmed in leather
And some are made with gourds
There's organs and trombones
And reverbs we can use
Lots of dx-7s
And old athletic shoes
I bought a great big building
It took up one whole block
I made an inventory
Of all the things in stock
The list was getting longer
I was up all night
I used up all my pencils
But I went on despite
The blur of my vision
The sweat upon my face
I've got to put this stuff away
I mustn't leave a trace
The landlord's breathing down my neck
He say's it's a disgrace
So i said "put it in a cool, dry, place."
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2006 14:02 |
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bigdork.2
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 11-22-2004
Posts: 690
Location: posting slump
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"cool dry place"
so in my truck last friday when it was 118 outside would not be a good place to leave a cd
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can I be my own buddy?
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07-24-2006 14:44 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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I am guilty of that myself. If you want to prolong the life of a CD, thats not the best storage place.
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-24-2006 15:18 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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We usually make CD-Rs for the car.
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Got a few miles left ...
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07-24-2006 15:43 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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I only said something about "strength of LAsars" on the fly..
I dont know anything aobut it really. - it was just a thought.
not based on aything but assumption
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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07-24-2006 21:20 |
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Gabriel Syme
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 01-31-2003
Posts: 759
Location: The banquet at the world's end
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There are many reasons why a disc might fail. It could be cracks or scratches that you can't even see. It could be that where you live is tough on optical discs. And on rare occassions, the disc may be defective; in any mass-production environment, there will be some lemons even if 99% of the product of that factory is good. You could have the one bad disc out of every 10,000 (just an example).
In CD-ROM discs (including audio recordings), the metal-reflective data layer is very close to the label of the disc. It is relatively vulnerable compared to the data layer of a DVD-ROM disc, and is more likely to be damaged from the label side than from the readout surface. The National Istitute of Standards and Technology estimates that CD-ROM discs have a life before failure of 20-100 years; the data is still out for some of it, but even the highest estimate is 400 years shorter than microfilm--which is one reason, along with changing digital data standards, that microfilm isn't going to disappear anytime soon.
NIST CD and DVD guide
One paragraph of interest:
"ROM disc longevity is determined by the extent to which its aluminum layer is exposed to oxygen. Oxygen, including pollutants, can migrate through the polycarbonate layer or the hard laquer layer carried in by moisture. Oxygen or moisture can more easily penetrate through scratches, cracks, or delaminated areas in the label. Oxygen can also be trapped inside the disc during manufacturing, although manufacturing improvements have reduced the likelihood of this."
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07-25-2006 08:46 |
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uvulapie
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 09-09-2003
Posts: 193
Location: Applying for a job at the Lavoris factory
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Count me in... my copy of Phil & John's "Don't Look Now... Hallelujah Brothers" CD degraded to the point where it was unplayable. You can actually hold the CD up to the light and SEE THROUGH IT! That's the only time I've had this problem but since discovering it years ago I live in mortal fear of losing other albums. This problem is real... be afraid... very afraid.
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07-26-2006 10:07 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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Most CDs you can hold up to the light and see through. Its because of the holes that are burned in the aluminum layer durring recording.
Allowing moisture and oxygen in to that layer is exactly what I mean when I say that they build CDs to protect them from oxidation. A tiny scratch could be enough to let moisture in even if that scratch does nothing to damage the playablity, the water will.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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07-26-2006 10:35 |
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