Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: The Minority Report

Posted by audiori on 07-16-2004 at14:10:

Yeah we welcome the discussion, we basically wanted to get people to think of this type of stuff the way we 'sort of.' It's a hard point to make without offending someone or coming across as just being defensive or trying to paint everything rosey.

We know there will be albums that people will not like, DA's career is pretty much built on forcing their audience to keep adapting to new things or leave.

They've gotten 'complaints' all along over style or whatever.. "We want Shotgun Angel!"

Jeffrey and we get to see exactly how this type of stuff affects the guys more closely. And the guys fans are a small 'family' of people... even swaying a few not to buy a release does affect things. We all know how companies spend millions on advertising, and they advertise to target audiences... Some of these negative comments are like negative advertising to exactly the guys target audience. It does hit the finances.

We will not keep harping on it, but we want to make sure people understand our spirit. It's not to hold people back.

Our opinion of Mutt is extremely favorable, I actually have had it playing in my car exclusively since before Cornerstone. I think it is good in many ways, just as some have expressed here for example it does split the creative input pretty evenly among the guys.. it mixes the fan bases together.. I don't think people have to worry about they Dogs only doing albums like this from now on... but one occasionally might happen. Or maybe a song or two like this on a full album... or like that weird cover album they mentioned with adding in those Gene Eugene recordings. They tend to experrement in various directions a lot, which is good it keeps them viable.

I believe Terry, Mike and Derri never want to just put out the same thing over and over. They want to stretch in many directions and do new things. Mutt while being a revisit to older songs, is still fun... anyone that saw the show will tell you the live show of Mutt was fun. Thats what it is meant to be. I don't think they ever considered it to be compared to their actual Dogs albums. It's a fun release geared toward the fans of their respective bands.

Posted by bereal on 07-16-2004 at15:00:

RE: Jeffrey - On Jim White

quote:

Originally posted by DwDunphy
But this is my point about the Lost Dogs that is so important to me: they fill an ever shinking position in music (and let's not get into the whole Christian vs. secular thing. Music is music!). Acoustic-based, Americana-styled pop is a very small genre, getting smaller. Two inches to the left and it is Country. Two inches to the right and it's pop music. The guys keep it level on the level (as Stephen King once put it) and again, it is an expression of who they are now, and I admire them much for it .
DwD

Great point! The Dogs doing what The Dogs do best! They are who they are and I wouldn't want them doing anything different. Pleased

Let's not decrease their fan base that's about as small as it ever should be! Let's support the guys and help it grow! Wink

audiori, having seen the live show, they were definitely having fun! Don't know about others, but so was I. Cool

Posted by dorfsmith on 07-16-2004 at21:41:

RE: What bothers me...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffrey k.

quote:

Originally posted by DwDunphy
There isn't a lot of music out there like The Dogs, in any capacity. Maybe Pinetop Seven, Calexico and (now) Jim White, but the venue for the americana-style of music is getting smaller and smaller. And it also seems that there is still a large sector of the fans that just want the Dogs to rock.

But the band is very different now, more reflective. They lost an integral member, have been in the "industry" for quite some time, all were promised the moon by the big labels at one point or another and alll of them got moldy cheese as their payback. With that in mind, I can see how the Dogs would collectively say, "this is the truest expression of us, where we are, right now."

Now, would I welcome a rockin' Eddies, Sevens or Choir release in the future? Sure. But I understand the crux of what the Dogs are and, actually have always been, and if someone listens to a disc for what they want versus what is there, they will always be disappointed. "What you want" is almost uniformly much more than most are able to give, and it is very much an unfair benchmark to ask for.

But that's me rambling.
DwD

Excellent post.

As a side note, do you have the latest Jim White record? I have that "wrong eyed jesus" CD and I like it, but I've sorta lost touch since then. He did a movie recently, a documentary on the underbelly of southern culture that also features 16 Horsepower that I'd really like to see. I think right now it only has Euro distro.

jeffrey k.

I thought I was the only one who listened to Jim White Tongue

Posted by Woggy on 07-17-2004 at03:23:

As a relative newbie to all things DA, TST, Lost Dogs, et al, may I make a comment???

WHO CARES WHAT YOU ALL THINK?????

anyone who likes music will listen and buy and love whatever touches them ........... and nothing that anyone SAYS will likely influence that.

Come ON, we're not idiots and clones, are we??? I generally don't listen to critics about movies, music, or otherwise, cuz what the hell do THEY know? Music is subjective...and not everyone will like what "critics" think is good.

I would hope that thinking, caring fans of Terry, Mike, et al will make up their own minds........I've only heard two Lost Dogs creations (Green Room Serenade and Little Red), and I love them both. I've only heard the MUTT clips, and like them, too. I haven't yet purchased my own copy (but that's just me........I'm not a big music buyer, but JimIny has it, and I'm SURE he will borrow it to me for review Smile

)

This whole thread sounds like bullgrey poop'on.............take it from an "ole lady", you guys need a happy hour or something.

Posted by Woggy on 07-17-2004 at03:24:

oh, yeah.....

THAT was worth a double post Smile

Posted by audiori on 07-17-2004 at06:03:

My guess is most DA/77s/Dogs fans don't care what critics say... I mean, if Rolling STone gives the Dogs a bad review - Dogs fans would know that they didn't know what they were talking about. We had a local St Louis paper give the Dogs a bad concert review a few years ago.. the reviewer admitted that he didn't see the show or listen to the CD... he just made comments on "silly song titles" and crap like that. Dogs fans know that guys like that are idiots.

But, we're talking about fans talking directly to the entire fan base. That's very different. Fans do listen to what other fans think. If the general discussion on a mb or list is "its not worth it" - then a lot of fans will pay attention to that. The saddest part is that some fans would decide not to buy something based on a negative review that is rooted in nothing more than the person's opinion that there are "too many shots of Chicago." There are a lot of fans that hold off on buying something until they see what the reviews are like... we've had a bunch even tell us that they do that.

The question is...

What good does it do for anyone when a *FAN* of an artist IMMEDIATELY trashes a release as soon as it's available? We've seen it happen over and over again... what's the purpose? Why does it almost always happen? I mean the FIRST thread on the 77s list about MUTT was entitled something like "My disappointment in MUTT." Why do certain people feel the need to post to every Dogs related message board and list *the second something is released* and share with the other fans (and the artists themselves) how disappointed they are in the new release and everything they think is wrong with it? Sometimes it seems like the people that don't like a release are on
a mission to destroy it... I mean, they beat everyone else to the review, they post on every list and message board they can find, etc, etc... Why?

Like Jeffrey said, we're not talking about a review in a newspaper, a magazine or on a non-related website... we're talking about negative multi-list/multi-board posts to the entire fan base - immediately upon a projects release.. There's something very weird about that... and it seems like it happens every single time. It's quite often the same few people too...

Posted by DwDunphy on 07-17-2004 at07:36:

That is troubling

And I'm not pointing fingers here, because then we get into unhealthy situations where boardmembers are limiting their opinions. No one is saying, "this is a free-speech crackdown".

But our money directly affects whether these projects get made now. Our opinions directly affect the budgetary bottom line. We don't give the bands any profit here, we're helping them barely break even. So, if someone is disappointed by a project, they have every right to feel as they feel; no brainwashing here. But understand that causing a negative backlash does not spur the artists to make the kind of disc the person fostering the backlash wants. If anything, it causes all involved to go broke, forcing them to do other things to survive.

"Other things", other than music.

Were this Columbia or Capitol or BMG, the money managers would quietly spray down the deck and eat the loss. But this is much different. Here, the artists themselves are going to suffer the consequence. So it is kind of up to us to be good stewards of this enterprise.

Do witness the kind of vitriol that was served up for Edward Daniel Taylor 2 and tell me, as an outsider looking in, would you dare bother to try that disc out? Even if you were a massive fan of Firesign Theater (which that disc owes a lot to), you would never get the impression from some of the comments off of that particular page.

And that has seriously compromised the cashflow for something like the new Eddies project. So the final thought is this: mom was right, at least in this circumstance. If you have nothing nice to say about Britney Spears, it isn't going to affect her profitability one iota. If you have nothing nice to say about bands who's primary distribution is self-contained and web-based, you are speaking directly to the heart of the operation.

Sometimes your kind word is the one you don't speak.

DwD

Posted by Mark on 07-17-2004 at08:52:

Great post audiori! You are exactly correct. Fans will listen to other fans.

Posted by DaLe on 07-17-2004 at09:48:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark
Great post audiori! You are exactly correct. Fans will listen to other fans.

...well I am a FaN & here is what I have to say Tongue

MuTT is the Perfect CD for the dogs at this time.
it is what the fans have wanted for a looooong time.
at the BBQ's I went to (3) fans wanted to hear these songs not
Bad indegestion for the tenth time...
"if you want to" WoW! the "Lust..." Yes! "Grace..." Cool

I mean if I had the Dogs come to my home town & I could request a few
songs (which I did Pleased

) these are the type of songs I would (& did) request
plus these versions & the style are more easily done Live & lets face
It, Live is were the Dogs Shine ! shine on boys.

DaLeLookingforwardtoMuTT2also,please.
iftheguysneedsomesuggestionsonwhichsongstodonexttellthemtheycanjuste-mailme
... Wink

p.s. maybe Honest & disappointment reviews are just a natural
progression from the reviews we all grew old reading in CCM mag....

ex. this CCM Band is Great! thier new CD is kinda like the beatle's revolver & Dylans Blood on the Tracks, But Better! Roll Eyes

Posted by John Foxe on 07-17-2004 at12:55:

Hear Mutt, "Good dog!"

I just got Mutt, and I really, really enjoy it. To hear new renditions of songs, most of which I've heard the originals of, is refreshing. Standouts for me include 'It's so sad', 'grace is the smell of rain', 'beautiful, scandalous night', and 'ain't gonna fight it'.

I never really took 'ain't...' seriously because it was so old (c. 1976), but the new rendition is beautiful. This is something I should get my youth group to sing. Definitely some radio material here.

Everyone who hasn't bought it, buy it, spin it!

Posted by Mountain Fan on 07-17-2004 at21:59:

quote:

Originally posted by Woggy
As a relative newbie to all things DA, TST, Lost Dogs, et al, may I make a comment???

WHO CARES WHAT YOU ALL THINK?????

anyone who likes music will listen and buy and love whatever touches them ........... and nothing that anyone SAYS will likely influence that.

Come ON, we're not idiots and clones, are we??? I generally don't listen to critics about movies, music, or otherwise, cuz what the hell do THEY know? Music is subjective...and not everyone will like what "critics" think is good.

I would hope that thinking, caring fans of Terry, Mike, et al will make up their own minds........I've only heard two Lost Dogs creations (Green Room Serenade and Little Red), and I love them both. I've only heard the MUTT clips, and like them, too. I haven't yet purchased my own copy (but that's just me........I'm not a big music buyer, but JimIny has it, and I'm SURE he will borrow it to me for review Smile

)

This whole thread sounds like bullgrey poop'on.............take it from an "ole lady", you guys need a happy hour or something.

Wogs, you gotta remember this is still CCM. And a lot of lurkers are faithful churchgoers. And a lot of faithful churchgoers DON'T think for themselves. Shocked

I have had very positive things to say about MUTT. I think the most negative thing I have said is I don't want another MUTT. Or maybe that it was a nice panoramic view, but not a destination.

It makes me quite sad to hear audiori and jeffrey k to say that this really does mess with the guys pocketbooks, even though it mostly shouldn't. So I say again make some guidelines about commentary on new releases or something and put some of these threads in the dump, away from lurkers.

It it was me, I would want to hear all kinds of reactions to my work (as long as it wasn't messing with my pocketbook Frown

). If I really didn't care what the fans thought, then I wouldn't have a messageboard.

Posted by dorfsmith on 07-18-2004 at12:17:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark
Great post audiori! You are exactly correct. Fans will listen to other fans.

This site gets tons of hits from people who are not hard core fans like us. They like the lost dogs the way I like modest mouse or poor old lu. If the fans of those bands said their new album sucked I would still want to hear it but it would not be a priority for me. It would go to the bottom of my wish list. Since my list is so long I might never come around to buying it and that hurts sales. We are not just talking to ourselves here, we are talking to people on the fringe. I'm sure that Mark and I are not the only ones who listen to the other fans.

Posted by jwaltb on 07-18-2004 at19:27:

Interesting discussion. I think we all wish for Derri, Mike, & Terry and all of their respective musical incarnations to continue and be successful. I also think we all have high expectations any time a new release is suggested and are looking for something to grab us like some of their work did previously; maybe like what led us to be fans in the first place. Given that, it's reasonable to expect that we sometimes will envision a project to sound a certain way or to contain certain elements and to experience somewhat of a letdown when it isn't that way. I think if we approach new works with this in mind it will help us to consider them properly before we comment. Maybe live with them a bit and try to appreciate them for what they are when they aren't just what we expected.

That said, the thought comes to mind that one of the reasons I became a fan in the first place has to do with the honesty and sincerity that were expressed in the lyrics of these guys' bands as opposed to what was available in mainstream CCM. By the same token I tended to often discount reviews from certain widely known mags and put more stock in things I read in magazines like 7-Ball or like those found on Phantom Tollbooth. It'd be very ironical to think that it took us censuring our comments to avoid injuring their chances for continuing.

What I hope doesn't happen is that we'd start censuring reviews to the point that we have nothing more than a Stepford Wives' list of glowing reviews where anything and everything gets a "perfect" and no comments have any value. Hopefully we can strike a balance that will allow us to maintain our own integrity and express our views while not getting so flippant and quick on the draw that we make offhand remarks that adversely affect the livelihood of "our guys".

That said I really enjoy Mutt. Being a guitarist I would've enjoyed a bit more of Mike's lead work but the album is really good. The current rendition of Ain't Gonna Fight It is beautiful. Derri does a great job on it and Terry's background vocals are emphasized just at the right point in the chorus near the end. It did take me two or three listens on If You Want To to get used to the arrangement (I kept wanting that lead lick to show up) but I am liking it more and more. Terry's singing on The Lust, The Flesh is great. It gives it a Dylan-esque "world weary" feel that just goes with the song. As for the percussion overall, to be honest it just blended to me. I never thought about it until I read some of the comments here. In all it is a CD I think I'll be spinning regularly. And one other thing, I don't think the clips on the website actually do it justice. I had some reservations after listening to some of them but found my fears were ungrounded after hearing the whole project. Hope you enjoy it as much.

Jim B

Posted by audiori on 07-18-2004 at20:59:

quote:

Originally posted by jwaltb
What I hope doesn't happen is that we'd start censuring reviews to the point that we have nothing more than a Stepford Wives' list of glowing reviews where anything and everything gets a "perfect" and no comments have any value. Hopefully we can strike a balance that will allow us to maintain our own integrity and express our views while not getting so flippant and quick on the draw that we make offhand remarks that adversely affect the livelihood of "our guys".

I don't think anyone is suggesting anything like that. If we wanted to censor bad reviews - we'd just delete them. If we wanted to censure the reviewers themselves, we'd just ban them... we wouldn't be appealing to you the way we are. No one is saying "don't ever say anything negative," and no one is saying "pretend like you like it even if you don't."

Of course, by all means, be honest. But, it almost seems like some fans that don't like a particular release are trying to "punish" the guys for making something that doesn't meet their expectations. Some folks seem to be trying to poison the water right as the majority of fans begin to take a drink.

We're just appealing to you guys -as fans- to think about your reviews before they're posted - think about how they affect the guys. It's still ok to say "this isn't my cup of tea," but use some discretion. Remember that there are people reading your post that are trying to decide whether or not they want to put their hard earned money down to purchase it. Don't accidentally talk them out of it just because this particlar release may not be your favorite.

Posted by jeffrey k. on 07-18-2004 at21:11:

Since "censoring" keeps getting brought up as a fear, please try and understand that censoring is NOT what we are talking about. The Townsends nailed a big part of the issue a couple posts back:

The question is...

What good does it do for anyone when a *FAN* of an artist
IMMEDIATELY trashes a release as soon as it's available? We've seen
it happen over and over again... what's the purpose? Why does it
almost always happen? I mean the FIRST thread on the 77s list about
MUTT was entitled something like "My disappointment in MUTT." Why
do certain people feel the need to post to every Dogs related message
board and list *the second something is released* and share with
the other fans (and the artists themselves) how disappointed they are
in the new release and everything they think is wrong with it?
Sometimes it seems like the people that don't like a release are on
a mission to destroy it... I mean, they beat everyone else to the
review, they post on every list and message board they can find, etc,
etc... Why? (end quote)

I'd like to know why too. I really would.

jeffrey k.