Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: Cornerstone - the end is near

Posted by Audiori J on 06-06-2012 at21:59:

quote:

Originally posted by vapspwi

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Well.... fewer that count would probably be more accurate. I mean face it if your budget is $1000... you can either book 50 moderate sized bands at $20 a piece... or 5 big bands at $150 a piece, 10 moderate bands at $20 and 100 lousy bands at $2 a piece. I think it would be fair to say they seemed to go from the first option to the second. Quantity doesn't mean quality.

I suspect (and I haven't seen any evidence to make me doubt my suspicion) that you've got a bit of DA-focused tunnel vision when it comes to "quality."

Sorry, but the argument that it's just quantity and not quality doesn't hold water. They've got both - almost 40 bands that I wanted to see or saw and enjoyed, a bunch more that aren't my thing but have their fans, and a ton more stuff besides.

JRjr

I suspect (and I haven't seen any evidence to make me doubt my suspicion) that you've got a bit of chip on your shoulder or an axe to grind. Just because I had worked for DA doesn't mean I have some sort of DA-focused tunnel vision. I have experience with this band and I used my experience with them as an example in this thread, but everything I said could of been applied to many other bands. There are tons of bands that could of made a lot of money for the fest if the merch tents were handled better for example.

Towards the end of your post you seem to do exactly what you accuse me of.. you make it seem that DA is my measuring stick when it comes to quality... and then you use 'bands you wanted to see' as your measuring stick to prove there were plenty of quality bands.

My points really have more to do with financial stability, than my taste in music. The fest is ending because of finances, you claim they have not made money over the years, a claim that technically just can't make sense, but even if we assume that is true; I am saying they have made poor financial choices. They have not handled the bands financially wisely, my experience with DA is just an example of that. Its just not financially wise to relegate a band that made the most merch money of any band ever in the history of the fest to some obscure corner of the extra merch tent. There are plenty of other bands who have the same characteristics of cult followings that could do the same thing as what DA has done. Those bands could of helped generate more funds for the fest, but they were not handled well or focused on for quite a few years.

Bands that are stable and not 'here today and gone tomorrow' can bring in more finances. Bands that have cult followings that have existed for years can bring in more finances. Bands that tour less frequently can bring in more finances. But the fest has to recognize their worth and how to focus on them and set them up for win/win situations. Everything I am saying could be applied to DA, but also to Keaggy, Fleming and John (as my brother said), the 77s, the Lost Dogs, the Choir, VOL (one of your favorites), Tonio K and Sixteen Tons of Monkeys, Bruce Cockburn, and so on. Bands similar to the ones that started the fest.

I am saying they didn't handle these types of bands well in the last several years and it hurt the fest financially. I think their 'vision' changed and they thought the big acts would save them financially and I think it actually hurt them in the long run, because those bands cost a LOT more and the return for investment is far from guaranteed. I think if the fest was hurting financially, as you contend, then spending huge amounts of money on these big type bands was bound to limit their budget on the other bands. Hense filling up the 100+ band roster with 'here today gone tomorrow' bands that while some might think they are great, the majority thinks are just filler. Filler that doesn't generate much income either, I might add.

I also think some of their decisions have driven away some of their most loyal financial supporters. It was the old timers that would come to the fest with yearly savings to spend literally hundreds of dollars on merch.. while the 'new generation' of fest goers wander around the merch tents asking for free stuff. As someone who has worked the fest for quite a few years I see the distinction and it is an important one for a fest that is financially dieing.

Posted by dennis on 06-07-2012 at05:41:

Agreed, it seems Vespacow has an axe to grind.
Add some screaming and chainsaws and there's another crappy band to fill up a slot at cornerstone.

Posted by vapspwi on 06-07-2012 at07:16:

quote:

Originally posted by dennis
Agreed, it seems Vespacow has an axe to grind.
Add some screaming and chainsaws and there's another crappy band to fill up a slot at cornerstone.

The only axe I have to grind is the truth, and to assert that Cornerstone has been blowing all their money on big bands and not booking any quality smaller bands simply isn't true. I posted that list of almost 40 quality bands across a lot of styles to illustrate that the fest isn't "tobyMac and 100 bands that they could book for $20 each with the money they had left."

If you're looking for somebody with an axe to grind, then let's be honest - you need to be looking at the guy who's complaining that the fest hasn't booked a group of bands that barely exist anymore (DA, 77s, etc.) enough over the last decade or so, and is using demonstrably false assertions ("the fest elected for quantity and not quality") to try to back up that claim. I'd be shocked to hear about an instance where DA wanted to play the fest and Cornerstone said "no thanks" - they put them on Main Stage last year, for crying out loud.

I'm not saying there's not a lot of crap bands at Cornerstone. I've got no interest in hardcore and death metal and that sort of stuff, and I've gone to great lengths to avoid that stuff in recent years (my friends and I listen to every band on the schedule to figure out what they sound like, and make a custom schedule booklet with a description of every band at the fest, including generator stages, prioritized according to our general tastes). I am saying that there's still more good music there than you could listen to in a week. I used my personal tastes, which are fairly broad, as an example, and didn't really even get into all the other stuff that was there in 2007 that I recognize as quality but don't find to my tastes, stuff ranging from Glenn Kaiser to the Myriad to Pigeon John to the Crossing.

JRjr

Posted by vapspwi on 06-07-2012 at07:39:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
I suspect (and I haven't seen any evidence to make me doubt my suspicion) that you've got a bit of chip on your shoulder or an axe to grind.

Certainly no chip on my shoulder, and like I said before, the only axe I have to grind is the truth - a fair representation of what actually goes on at Cornerstone.

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Just because I had worked for DA doesn't mean I have some sort of DA-focused tunnel vision.

It just kind of seems that way, based on the fact that I don't think anybody else in this thread has named a band they like that came into existence within the last 10-15 years. It's hard to reconcile the "the fest ignores good bands" assertion when a lot of the measuring sticks for "good" are bands like DA, the 77s, Fleming & John, and VOL (yeah, Mallonee's still soldiering on, but it's not the same) that are barely active beyond sporadically (if at all) anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Towards the end of your post you seem to do exactly what you accuse me of.. you make it seem that DA is my measuring stick when it comes to quality... and then you use 'bands you wanted to see' as your measuring stick to prove there were plenty of quality bands.

Yeah, it was "bands I wanted to see." I'm a 41 year old guy that was raised on classic CCM stuff, probably like a lot of folks here, so that list covered a wide gamut of styles, some of which other people might like if they had ever heard it. I also mentioned a lot of other stuff that's widely regarded as "good" that I don't personally care for. It's not all screaming and chainsaw bands.

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
They have not handled the bands financially wisely, my experience with DA is just an example of that. Its just not financially wise to relegate a band that made the most merch money of any band ever in the history of the fest to some obscure corner of the extra merch tent.

I'm really not sure that matters. For one thing, people who want DA merch are going to find DA merch if it's there to be had. For another thing, is that even sustainable? I've been going to the fest for 15 years, and I think I've seen DA there like 3 times (and I really doubt Cornerstone turned them down in those other 12 years). If they WERE there every year, would they set records in years when you weren't selling the Alarma Chronicles set or whatever? Once everybody owns everything the band has to offer, sales are going to drop off, and DA hasn't been all that prolific in the last decade or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Bands that are stable and not 'here today and gone tomorrow' can bring in more finances. Bands that have cult followings that have existed for years can bring in more finances. Bands that tour less frequently can bring in more finances.

Unfortunately, the industry has changed, and "here today and gone tomorrow" is the way of most bands. The ones that stick around are mostly the ones that get big and play mainstage (the ones a lot of folks think the fest shouldn't be spending money to book).

I love the reunion shows and such, and yeah, I'd love to see them bring in more of them. But if the bands don't exist or don't play, what can Cornerstone really do about it? I guess they could back up the money truck and get them to come out of retirement, but it's debatable how wise an investment that is, even if you and I would really enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
But the fest has to recognize their worth and how to focus on them and set them up for win/win situations. Everything I am saying could be applied to DA, but also to Keaggy, Fleming and John (as my brother said), the 77s, the Lost Dogs, the Choir, VOL (one of your favorites), Tonio K and Sixteen Tons of Monkeys, Bruce Cockburn, and so on. Bands similar to the ones that started the fest.

This discussion always seems to come back around to "they need to be putting on Cornerstone from the 80s every year" as I read it. As much as I would enjoy something like that, I still don't think it's the answer to their problems.

I still want to know how to get around the fact that a lot of those bands aren't particularly active. I mean, I'd like to see Mark Heard and Larry Norman at the fest, too, but...

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Hense filling up the 100+ band roster with 'here today gone tomorrow' bands that while some might think they are great, the majority thinks are just filler. Filler that doesn't generate much income either, I might add.

The fact that you discount the large and diverse list of bands that I posted that were generally good (subjective, yes, but I share a demographic with a lot of folks here), popular (well-attended shows), and in some cases pretty stable and long-term as "filler" hurts the credibility of everything else you're saying.

JRjr

Posted by Audiori J on 06-07-2012 at07:44:

quote:

Originally posted by vapspwi
I'd be shocked to hear about an instance where DA wanted to play the fest and Cornerstone said "no thanks" - they put them on Main Stage last year, for crying out loud.
JRjr

It has happened. There have been years where DA wanted to play, but were told that the fest was going in a different direction. There were years where DA was told that the fest only wanted to book certain types of bands every few years.

quote:

Originally posted by vapspwi
....the fest hasn't booked a group of bands that barely exist anymore (DA, 77s, etc.) enough over the last decade or so...
JRjr

I would argue that bands such as these exist in a far greater state than many of the 'here today gone tomorrow' bands that play the fest. If anyone barely exists, it would be those bands who just started but probably won't be around next week.

There are reasons why bands like the 77s, DA, etc have lasted 20, 30 or 40 years. There is a certain 'quality' that just isn't present with the bands that come and go in a flash. That quality generates a loyal following that allows the band to continue inspite of the general market and other factors. These bands understand their loyal fans and there is a mutually benificial relationship that endures.

Cornerstone either didn't understand this dynamic or they understood it and ignored it to a large degree. And I am saying that might be why Cornerstone is ending but these bands are not. They originally tapped into that dynamic, but over the course of the last decade they have turned their back on it to varying degrees.

Posted by John Foxe on 06-07-2012 at07:52:

Please give grace

vapspwi, let me tell you as graciously as I can, from someone who started and has quietly followed this thread, that your choice of words is needlessly provocative ("demonstratively false assertions", "barely exist anymore", etc.). Please be considerate - tone it down and try not to flame, it is not helpful.

I will stand by my perspective as I started this thread, and it has been confirmed by others who know much more from the inside. If the Townsends are speculating on certain things, doesn't it follow that we speculate to a much greater degree? Give them some grace and benefit of the doubt... they are invested in the fest to a much greater degree than either of us, know the bands far better than we do, and are privy to details that we will never know.

We are on the same side, hopefully - we all want the best for the bands we love, and we are sincerely mourning the pending death of a beloved outlet for some great Christian music and camaraderie.

Posted by Ron E on 06-07-2012 at08:21:

RE: Please give grace

I'm with you fellers.

Posted by sprinklerhead on 06-07-2012 at10:01:

quote:

Originally posted by sondance

quote:

Nope. Not the clown and not sure I really want to admit where we come in at haha

pretty sure that was you and some buds messing around with a microphone in your short shorts:-)

some styles beg to be replaced

still... quite a performance, well done!

Well, the secret is out Smile

Posted by dennis on 06-07-2012 at15:55:

RE: Please give grace

quote:

Originally posted by John Foxe
vapspwi, let me tell you as graciously as I can, from someone who started and has quietly followed this thread, that your choice of words is needlessly provocative ("demonstratively false assertions", "barely exist anymore", etc.). Please be considerate - tone it down and try not to flame, it is not helpful.

I will stand by my perspective as I started this thread, and it has been confirmed by others who know much more from the inside. If the Townsends are speculating on certain things, doesn't it follow that we speculate to a much greater degree? Give them some grace and benefit of the doubt... they are invested in the fest to a much greater degree than either of us, know the bands far better than we do, and are privy to details that we will never know.

We are on the same side, hopefully - we all want the best for the bands we love, and we are sincerely mourning the pending death of a beloved outlet for some great Christian music and camaraderie.

Very well put good sir.

Posted by John Foxe on 06-07-2012 at16:18:

Last face-to-face?

Dennis, I don't know if you remember me, but I met you in 2002 at LifeFest, at the SwEds concert. That year was fun but weird - remember how crazy they were about time frames, holding those signs up? That was also the last time I saw Rick Altizer - he's a cool guy and a great musician.

Anyway, this c-stone will probably be the last time a lot of us will be in one spot, so if I make it there I will be saying hello (and goodbye) to everyone with a DA, SE, LD, TST, 77s, or related shirt on.

Posted by Audiori J on 06-07-2012 at16:33:

LifeFest was interesting. I met Dennis there as well.

They stuck the Eddies in some sort of fenced in dirt pit. The Eddies were kind of booked for that fest without Terry realizing they were going to do that.. so they had basically no chance to rehearse at all. Which made it interesting.. it ended up being a weird, weird jam group. Mike Roe also performed with the Trophy Wives as backup. Rick Altizer performed "I Love You #19" at his set, which was pretty cool to hear live.

They also made us shut down the merch booth every time a speaker spoke somewhere in the fest, which rendered the merch booth pretty much moot. At one point I thought I would use one of the frequent 'shut downs' to go get a drink, but they wouldn't even sell me a water while someone was speaking so I shrivelled up and blew away.

There was also some weirdness at the time because M8 had a booth there after all the bands had broken ties with them. They had been turned in by a few artists for bootlegging them, and they acted kinda shifty and weird towards us. Everyone had to kind of keep an eye out for them and what they were up to.

I was told at the time, by someone who had worked for the bands whose words were not always trustworthy, that the check Lifefest sent to pay the Eddies had bounced. Like I said, not exactly sure if that was true. But at the time it seemed like there was always some weird shenanigans going on, which was frustrating then and hard to decipher now.

I did really enjoy a nice pizza back at the hotel after the show though.. wish I could remember what it was called. Steve Hindalong talked my ears off, which seemed to amuse Tim Chandler for some reason.

....And yeah, I won't be at this Cornerstone, don't see much point in it really. As I said elsewhere I will miss sharing those long dusty hot hours in that tent joking back and forth with Dan and Lisa Michaels. But I have long since mourned the fest itself.

But the topper was Onefest in Memphis for the Legends Tour, one of the fest guys drove us and our merch down to the stage where DA and the other bands were booked. On the way down he asked us "Why are you here since nobody wants you here?" The logic is a little odd since they booked the bands, but more importantly it was quite a warm greeting.

Posted by dennis on 06-07-2012 at17:17:

RE: Last face-to-face?

quote:

Originally posted by John Foxe
Dennis, I don't know if you remember me, but I met you in 2002 at LifeFest, at the SwEds concert. That year was fun but weird - remember how crazy they were about time frames, holding those signs up? That was also the last time I saw Rick Altizer - he's a cool guy and a great musician.

Anyway, this c-stone will probably be the last time a lot of us will be in one spot, so if I make it there I will be saying hello (and goodbye) to everyone with a DA, SE, LD, TST, 77s, or related shirt on.

Yes I remember you, Lifest certainly was interesting, it was cool but it seemed to be very weird in many ways too.
I enjoyed meeting you, we had a very enjoyable visit, I thought.

The Swirling Eddies jam band was so much fun as was Mike and the Trophy wives.

Posted by audiori on 06-07-2012 at17:56:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J

I did really enjoy a nice pizza back at the hotel after the show though.. wish I could remember what it was called. Steve Hindalong talked my ears off, which seemed to amuse Tim Chandler for some reason.

It was something like the Pizza Pit or Pizza Hole... it didn't sound very appetizing, but it actually was pretty good.

Bill Mallonee was there also.. Mike, Derri and Terry.. maybe Mike Stand? That was all in the hotel bar after the pizza though.

I also always liked Aurelio's Pizza in Macomb. Always made sure to get one of those on every Cstone trip. It as one of the few pizzas that seem to still be cooking while it was sitting on your table.

Posted by Ritchie_az on 06-07-2012 at18:34:

And that's why we need a Lost Dog's fest or annual big concert thingy....

Posted by dennis on 06-07-2012 at19:07:

Steve Hindalong was pretty chatty with me too. Great guy, very open and friendly. He gave me his setlists with his notes. My friend Jon ( Lucy) and I shared them.

Posted by sondance on 06-07-2012 at21:57:

you guys are making me jealous... still "why are you here since nobody wants you here" seems to be a rather fundamental existential question doesn't it?
a kind of milestone in life: here is a time when I was there and nobody wanted me there. i think parents, teachers and cops can relate, along with the homeless and many Presidents

Posted by wakachiwaka on 06-07-2012 at23:34:

quote:

Originally posted by dennis
Steve Hindalong was pretty chatty with me too. Great guy, very open and friendly. He gave me his setlists with his notes. My friend Jon ( Lucy) and I shared them.

As a friend of mine once remarked to me re. her first encounter with Indy Hindy: "God help the man if he ever drinks a Coke!"

Tongue

Posted by audiori on 06-08-2012 at00:09:

quote:

Originally posted by sondance
you guys are making me jealous... still "why are you here since nobody wants you here" seems to be a rather fundamental existential question doesn't it?
a kind of milestone in life: here is a time when I was there and nobody wanted me there. i think parents, teachers and cops can relate, along with the homeless and many Presidents

While we're on the subject..

Does the Solipsist exist if his own mind doesn't want him here?

Posted by DwDunphy on 06-08-2012 at04:32:

He must have had a major life-shift from when I saw him, much later, as part of Terry's home-concert run. Steve was much, much quieter -- not necessarily introverted but severely on-guard.

Posted by dennis on 06-08-2012 at05:26:

quote:

Originally posted by DwDunphy
He must have had a major life-shift from when I saw him, much later, as part of Terry's home-concert run. Steve was much, much quieter -- not necessarily introverted but severely on-guard.

He seemed very friendly when I went to The Choir concert last month.
I was very chatty with Tim Chandler and Hindalong seemed quite amused by it.