Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: Daniel Amos - Darn Floor Big Bite 20th Anniversary

Posted by MarkyMark77 on 11-29-2008 at20:29:

I wait for DVD's and some CD's to end up in the discount or cut out bin. But usually it's stuff that I'm not so sure about, stuff that I want to hear, but not to invest in. For the casual fan, or someone who isn't in the fan base category of a band and/or actor or director, that makes sense to me.

I've also been guilty of asking about CD's or vinyl, but not buying it because I really wanted to know how much it was. A big part of my music buying is fact finding and price comparing. Not sure if that falls into your category or not, James. I do know that if I ask about a song or a disc, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to buy it. I want to know the price and see the packaging, etc., because it's all a part of the deal for me.

As far as MF goes, I think he's just being honest. It doesn't bother me. It's not how I view product that Terry makes (I've bought stuff with the express purpose of supporting his art/ministry), but I understand.

Posted by joey on 11-29-2008 at20:43:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
The way I read comments like that, or the ones that say they will not buy or preorder from the website (the band), is basically like announcing 'I refuse to help support Terry and the guys.'

the main reason i bought the cd from the vendor i did is that it was 5 dollars less than what this website was selling it for...
the reason i will not preorder is because of the way preorders were handled in the past...i didn't want to get all upset again...at terry or anybody else..
so.....that means i am refusing to support terry and the guys??? Confused

because i bought the cd at circuitcity.com and didn't pre-order here? Roll Eyes

i see............
and if that is the case, why is the cd available at other outlets?

Posted by joey on 11-29-2008 at20:49:

i meant to edit, not quote myself.... Big Grin

Posted by audiori on 11-29-2008 at21:26:

quote:

Originally posted by James

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
Are people just mindlessly insensative or do they find a little pleasure poking somone in the eye?

Seems to be the latter with this guy. He's been making strange little comments/complaints like this for a while now. Makes me wonder why he even comes here, frankly.

Reminds me of the people who come into my buddy's record store and ask what cd a particular song is on. After searching for (sometimes for several minutes) and finding the cd for them and asking if they'd like to purchase it, they blurt out, "Oh no, that's okay. I'll just download it." I'm never sure if they're oblivious to what they're doing, or if they're that big of a jerk that they just don't care.

We've had people do that.. email in just to say, "Oh I was going to buy that one CD but I just found out I can download it from so and so." Gee.. thanks for the note. Let us know next time you steal from us. Roll Eyes

When the DA tribute came out years ago, we just slapped a made-up label name on it thats never been used for anything else before or since. I remember standing at Cornerstone that year... Jeff Elbel had come by the table to check it out. Some guy walked up, picked up the tribute and went "oh cool, the tribute!".. he looked at it for a few seconds, then muttered the name of the fake label and said "no thanks" and walked away. I busted out laughing. We had a few little labels wanting to take the project over from us at the time and we had turned them down primarily because of the arrangement we had with the owners of the music.. one of those little labels was M8. It had to be someone from one of those labels because the fake label name wouldn't mean anything to anyone else. I remember Jeff just glared at the guy for about 3 minutes as he was walking away. Big Grin

That made me laugh even more.

Posted by audiori on 11-29-2008 at21:33:

quote:

Originally posted by joey

the main reason i bought the cd from the vendor i did is that it was 5 dollars less than what this website was selling it for...
the reason i will not preorder is because of the way preorders were handled in the past...i didn't want to get all upset again...at terry or anybody else..
so.....that means i am refusing to support terry and the guys??? Confused

because i bought the cd at circuitcity.com and didn't pre-order here? Roll Eyes

i see............
and if that is the case, why is the cd available at other outlets?

You're reading a little extra into what he said.

First, theres a difference between someone who will not preorder and someone who announces it every few days. Most DA fans don't preorder anything... its actually always been a very small percentage that has preordered from the very beginning. WIth the Eddies thing, thats actually one reason it took longer than expected.. it was a smaller number of preorderers than ever before. Thats one reason its clear that theres an agenda behind that frequent announcement that a few make (I don't know if you do that or not), otherwise it wouldn't happen.. most fans don't feel the need.

Frequently announcing that someone will not buy from the website (as a couple of people do) is the same thing. Whats the point of the frequent announcement? It is saying "I refuse to support Terry." Its similar to someone constantly posting in a thread about a new release just to say they're not interested in it or to criticize every little thing about it. Theres nothing positive behind it. At best, its trying to discourage people from being excited about something and/or supporting it.

Buying from other venues is fine... most of it is supportive in its own way. THe band's cut will always be smaller from another venue though.. it has to be. Thats especially true if that other store is selling it even cheaper than normal... its a smaller amount that will be profit for anyone. Thats not saying that no one can do that, its just something to keep in mind. Its more supportive in the sense that its helping the label or the store itself and encouraging them to buy more from the band. Why are they available from other stores? Mostly for folks that are not on the internet, not yet fans or just out of touch. Its opening it up to new people. However, sometimes announcing it seems a little weird... almost like encouraging others to go and give the band a smaller cut.

Buying from a bargain bin or a used store is almost never supportive. Most used stores sell a lot of promotional copies - thats why many CDs have marks or holes in the bar code - which doesn't support the band or label. Or else they sell CDs obtained through other similar means - free CDs from clubs, etc.. again, not supportive of the band or label. Sales from Bargain bins never go to the band or label. And, again, the announcement of this is essentially saying someone refuses to support Terry and the band.

Posted by Audiori J on 11-29-2008 at22:07:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Frequently announcing that someone will not buy from the website (as a couple of people do) is the same thing. Whats the point of the frequent announcement? It is saying "I refuse to support Terry." Its similar to someone constantly posting in a thread about a new release just to say they're not interested in it or to criticize every little thing about it. Theres nothing positive behind it. At best, its trying to discourage people from being excited about something and/or supporting it.

Thats exactly what I am talking about. I didn't name any names, but there are those that tend to like to announce every so often that they will not buy from here or preorder. And there are those who like to 'rain on the parade' at times, post in the new announcement threads that they are 'uninterested in the release' or whatever. It does seem as though sometimes a few make a point to try and deflate the cake. That is what I can't wrap my head around.

Posted by joey on 11-29-2008 at22:25:

if the band was touring in my area, and i could buy it "directly from the band" then i would....
if i went to a bar with terry after the show i will buy terry a drink or two with the 5 bucks i saved from buying the re-issue at the venue i did.... Wink

this is an album i already bought on cassette 21 years ago as well....
now to say that you won't buy it at all or will wait to buy used or bargain bin, or try to download it for free is a whole different story...
i never said any of that... Cool

Posted by audiori on 11-29-2008 at23:47:

quote:

if the band was touring in my area, and i could buy it "directly from the band" then i would....

Buying from the website is buying directly from the band.

Its the same product, comes out of the same box and the same storage room. Its purchased by the same bank account and the money goes to the same pockets.

Posted by Jevon the Tall on 11-30-2008 at00:57:

I bought it here. It came without any troubles. And golly boy howdy when
i've had trouble, and there was one order that went way beyond weird, and i'm sure it was beyond the J&E's control, they stood behind it.

Everyone has their preference, and for those who shelled out for the product before, not lining up for thr re-issue and saying they'll look for it used, is fair comment. Probably not the one you want in the midst of celebrating the release, but it is what it is.

And as DW stated so well. It is better than it was when it was new. Hats off to the team who remastered. It's what we should have heard 20 years ago.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 11-30-2008 at02:12:

quote:

Originally posted by MarkyMark77
I wait for DVD's and some CD's to end up in the discount or cut out bin. But usually it's stuff that I'm not so sure about, stuff that I want to hear, but not to invest in. For the casual fan, or someone who isn't in the fan base category of a band and/or actor or director, that makes sense to me.

I've also been guilty of asking about CD's or vinyl, but not buying it because I really wanted to know how much it was. A big part of my music buying is fact finding and price comparing. Not sure if that falls into your category or not, James. I do know that if I ask about a song or a disc, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to buy it. I want to know the price and see the packaging, etc., because it's all a part of the deal for me.

As far as MF goes, I think he's just being honest. It doesn't bother me. It's not how I view product that Terry makes (I've bought stuff with the express purpose of supporting his art/ministry), but I understand.

Thank you.

I have bought plenty of stuff from the webstore and also sponsored an LD concert, for the record. At one time, I had everything that the store had available and then stuff they didn't that I picked up elsewhere. I think the last thing I bought here was the last SE disc.

I think honesty is not really valued here that much unless it is deemed supportive. There is too much concern over making a buck or getting one's feelings hurt. there is plenty of room for rabid fans that buy at any cost or wait uncomplainingly for any length of time. i guess i am now evil for stating more the "voice of the consumer" in a troubled economy.

If DFBB was available here sooner i would have already had it.

whatever. cest-la-vie.

Posted by audiori on 11-30-2008 at02:33:

Yeah, "making a buck" has always been the goal... because, as everyone knows, we're all getting filthy rich off of these CDs. Roll Eyes

(By the way, any guesses as to the identity of the last person that made that charge? )

Honesty is always cherished. There is a point however when it is just unnecessary... some words are better left unspoken. You don't wake up every day and tell a relative that they're fat, your mom that she cooks bad or a good friend that he has an ugly face. A handful of fans seem to think that every negative thought has to be posted on the band's own website (often, over and over again).. no matter how insensitive it is. No matter how unproductive it is.

quote:

honesty is not really valued here that much unless it is deemed supportive.

If you're a fan, why go to an artists website (especially one like Terry) and be anything but supportive toward them? Does anyone actually believe all he needs in his life is more criticism? Or more negativity. I know I don't need that in my life.

Posted by larryl on 11-30-2008 at07:09:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

quote:

if the band was touring in my area, and i could buy it "directly from the band" then i would....

i get what he is saying though...... i prefer to put the money right in mike's hand, or terry.. or whoever, too.....

Posted by crunchee on 11-30-2008 at07:54:

i ordered mine (and am encouraging my friends to order their's) from a local record store. it's been years since i bought a daniel amos cd from an actual store, so i can't wait to go in next week to pick it up.

believe me, i line terry's pockets whenever i can.

Posted by jiminy on 11-30-2008 at08:26:

The only reason they end up in a bin (mostly- IMHO) is that someone thought (in this case Arena rock I surmise) they'd sell their stock through the primary source-and they were wrong. Or they ordered a second run - and that run fell way short of expectations in sales- and again they were wrong.

If a person who waits til that occurs picks up a product at a "bargain" how can that be wrong ? I can't imagine the number of people who are intentionally doing this are in any way of consequence.

The primary source (and therefore the band ) got SOMETHING for any copies once Arena Rock (in this case) sold the bulk of their inventory- didnt they?

some people are a not even DA fans when the find something in a bin. that can be an oppurtunity for someone new to go "whats this- or I recall them " and make new fans

Posted by audiori on 11-30-2008 at13:10:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

quote:

if the band was touring in my area, and i could buy it "directly from the band" then i would....

i get what he is saying though...... i prefer to put the money right in mike's hand, or terry.. or whoever, too.....

How often do Mike and Terry run their own merch booths? Generally, even at places like Cstone where they might be sitting at the booth - they don't even want to handle the cash until after the fest. If they do take cash from a sale, they almost immediately turn around and hand it to one of us or to Linda or whoever might be helping.

My point is just that theres really no difference. You're always handing the cash to a middle man... but the money always goes to the same place whether its purchased at a show or through the website. Some seem to think theres some kind of difference just because they can't see Mike & Terry sitting there behind the store counter. There really isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by crunchee
i ordered mine (and am encouraging my friends to order their's) from a local record store. it's been years since i bought a daniel amos cd from an actual store, so i can't wait to go in next week to pick it up.

believe me, i line terry's pockets whenever i can.

Then you fall outside of whats being talked about here.

Thanks for the continued support of the fellas and Happy birthday Crunchee!

Posted by audiori on 11-30-2008 at13:16:

quote:

Originally posted by jiminy
The only reason they end up in a bin (mostly- IMHO) is that someone thought (in this case Arena rock I surmise) they'd sell their stock through the primary source-and they were wrong. Or they ordered a second run - and that run fell way short of expectations in sales- and again they were wrong.

From my experience, it always happens long before demand is met. M8 unloaded a lot of their titles that could easily still be selling. A bigger label unloaded a lot of theirs at ridiculously cheap prices a couple of years ago that we could still be selling. We actually bought up a bunch of those from another store at one point and sold them until we ran out... they would still be selling if we had them.

Frequently what happens is the label or distributor falls into some kind of bad financial situation where they need a lot of cash and they unload older titles quickly. Or, they change owners and the new people don't want the older stuff. In some cases, they're just making room in their storage house. In some cases, they go out of business and unload everything cheaply. Its usually something along those lines that sends stuff to the bargain bins. Occasionally, when its just a copy or two, it may be that the store that purchased them couldn't sell them.. I think for some theres a perception that that is what it is in every case. Most of the artists I know seem to take it that way.

One notable exception was Silent Planet. They actually came to us first when they semi-went-out-of-business. We were able to buy up most of their Avocado Faultline stock. It wasn't even very old at the time... but if they had went to another store first, it easily could have ended up in someones bargain bin even though it didn't deserve to be there. We really appreciated them giving us that opportunity when they did.

quote:

If a person who waits til that occurs picks up a product at a "bargain" how can that be wrong ? I can't imagine the number of people who are intentionally doing this are in any way of consequence.

Wrong? Not necessarily "wrong." But to go to an artists website and say "hey I found your CD in a bargain bin"... thats kind of cold-hearted. Even if unintentionally.

When remaining copies are unloaded at bargain bin prices, the artists generally do not see a dime from that. Like the situation I mentioned with a big label above... literally hundreds and hundreds of CDs were sold off to stores and the fellas didn't even know about it. We were able to find them at an online store and make a big purchase since that store was selling them inexpensively. Demand had not been met and no royalties were paid.

Posted by DwDunphy on 11-30-2008 at14:37:

It seems we always go to this point when something new comes out.

I understand the Audiori position - if product isn't sold in the initial push and runs into the aftermarket, those sales don't benefit the intend people, in this case being the band. Cut-out bins are about labels and outlets recouping losses, being nobody bothered to buy the things initially. In most cases, the artists on those items get nothing because, due to poor sales, the label has dropped them already from the fold. This is all about the label gaining severance monies back, or getting back what they can from production costs for a loss-leader (Think Geffen / Universal is sweating every copy of G'nR's Chinese Democracy?)

Aftermarket outlets like Rad Rockers and Half.com generally get their merch from CBS closeouts, outlet closeouts and the like. Half.com is probably worse in this respect because its estimated that at least a quarter of that merchandise is stolen. Zero funds get back to the band in these circumstances.

At the same time, I understand where MF is coming from insofar as he feels he's been wronged by the Audioris and he's dancing around the central theme: he feels he's being an advocate. The problem is that while everyone's being polite yet insistent, it's all getting ugly anyway (at least, it reads as much.) What the fight ultimately gains is unclear to me. The Audioris will still be handling the merchandise end. That won't change, and I haven't any complaints on that front. MF will still feel that something is not quite kosher and he's entitled to his opinion, but his prostestations aren't going to change the situation, nor will a vocal escalation. It's a matter of voting with the wallet (or withholding) and letting the action stand alone.

Things aren't going back to the way they were. It's not going to happen. Not that it has much bearing on the issue, but if you look at these DA auctions on Ebay, you find that many are initiated by Big Dork who is liquidating his collection. The residue of the Eddies pre-order backlash continues to sour everything moving forward. The only thing I can offer as solution is, "Blessed be the peacemakers." MF, if you feel your cause has been to warn others of possible bad business practices, you have. It is now a matter of new purchasers to heed Caveat Emptor, and the fight is not yours to wage anymore. Audioris, you have grown frustrated by what you feel is someone waging a form of character assassination. You have defended yourselves to the best of your ability, but you won't be able to change someone's mind who is determined. Again, the fight's not yours to wage anymore either.

Dead ends. I hope everyone will decide to call cease fire, if not a truce, stand on their actions and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, this same plotline will continue on and on with no resolution.

Posted by audiori on 11-30-2008 at14:42:

quote:

Originally posted by DwDunphy
At the same time, I understand where MF is coming from insofar as he feels he's been wronged by the Audioris...

Is that what this is about? If you're right - I didn't realize that was behind all of this attitude.

If you're right about this, then I would like to hear how he's been wronged by us. This thread is not the place of course, but a PM or email would be fine. Or, if he feels the need to do it publicly, then we could start a new thread down below somewhere out of the general public's eye. Heck, if he wanted me to, I'll set up a special forum that only he can see and let him say anything he wants.

I would much rather confront it than to let this continue. Especially if he, as you say, has any question about our business practices. A "cease fire" only works if its on the side that is questioning our "business practices." Otherwise, how can we "cease fire" on defending them? And why should we be expected to on our own website? We've always been very transparent about how things are done... and Mike and Terry will back that up.

My only rule is that we wouldn't go round and round over the same ground forever. If all questions have already been answered, then it is time to let it go. Those are really the two options.. either it should be dealt with, or it should stop.