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Posted by Mountain Fan on 03-03-2004 at11:56:

Church - A Love Hate Relationship

It seems we live in a time where even the elect are being deceived. My personal experience is that it has been really hard to find a good church, where people seem real and where they say they "love you and they mean it". Also, where it doesn't seem that it's so "easy for you" to everyone else. I feel like I do "small great things" at best. Etc etc. Maybe this is part of the reason why I connect so well with TST's music?

Do any of you care to share any of your experiences without being too specific? It seems hard to find true Christianity in action anymore. What a shame.

I don't want this to be a slam on any particular denominations or groups as a whole. It seems there are "good" churches that stand out in all types of denominations. I grew up in a typical Baptist church, attended Assemblies of God after I got saved after a few years of straying, attended a Pentecostal Holiness (a lot like AG), and am now at an inter-denominational church that has a basically AG Pastor's statement of faith. Before we settled down this time I was quite surprised to find a lot of great Presbyterian folks going to a couple of churches in the area (I even met one at a Dogs show a couple of hours away from our hometown!).

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Posted by carl on 03-03-2004 at12:10:

Yo Mountie....

Check out Dorfsmith's Angels thread he recently started in the Non-General Discussion (or whatever it's called) section, and a whole lot of stuff in The Argument Dump (but be sure to bring yr hip boots and yr thick skin before entering THAT zone). You'll find a lot of kindred spirits here.

I've been in good churches (recently) and bad churches (before that). And I still get frustrated with things/people at times. ("You, Carl? Nawwwwwwww...." ) The best advice I can give is to be real and to find a place you can do that as much as possible (because no place will be perfect). Which requires you to take risks. You can't keep it to yrself if you really want to experience fellowship. Some people will disappoint you, but just as many will surprise you.

Bearing in mind I probably would have said something much different 10+ years ago....

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Posted by jiminy on 03-03-2004 at12:20:

  Mountan Fan-

sounds like our backgrounds are not too far off. I grew up catholic- went to a holiness church (UPC) through my 20s and 30s, and then to A of G or E/Free related- though I've rather been unsettled the past few years.

I think we may all have personal reasons for "where we are at" churchwise- I love gathering places and feeling and sharing the grace and Spirit of our Lord- just not sure if thats always at one place week to week -know what I mean?

there was a day when I'd say to folks- "What, No Home Church? Are you backslid, lost, or WHAT!!?!?. Wheres your commitment- yer backbone!?"

Well- thats obviously changed, and I've choked on a few crow feathers for that bit o' stink.

I DO believe in fellowship- and sharing , and "leaning" as it were - and even the ol book o' Heb. COMMAND about "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves..."

I aint forsakin it- just on a mmmaajjoorr sabbatical.

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Posted by audiori on 03-03-2004 at12:47:

 

I've been to a few different types of Churches over the years,
and I have similar conclusions as you in the sense that there
are good ones and off base ones in every denomination.
I currently attend the Church I grew up in, and of course there
are believers there who don't live it, but thats anywhere.
Actually, I think there are a lot of people who link being Churchy
to living it. Living Christianity is to me not the same as just attending
Church services. But a lot of people in todays culture think it is.

I get irritated at the Church I attend if I take my focus off why
I am there and start focusing on what other people are doing.
Thats a difficult thing to separate. I am not saying, that if you
attend an off base Church to stick it out and try to keep your
focus. But, for me even in a good Church there are distractions.
There will always be the people there that volunteer to teach
or sing or whatever as their way of being in the limelight. There
will always be the ones there that 'live it' on Sundays and not
the rest of the week. It really irritates me when those people
insinuate that you are not as spiritual as they, when you are
being real....if that makes sense.
I would say find one that has good fellowship and good teaching,
the things you need, and do your best to keep your focus on that.
That advice might not be anywhere near what you're looking for,
but it's all I have from my experience along the same lines.
And it's what i have had to deal with for a while.

jason

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Posted by DwDunphy on 03-03-2004 at13:02:

  True Confessions

I haven't been a part of a physical church in years. I know I should find one, as my walk in faith could sure use the support sometimes. The problem is that many churches are so focused on the afterlife that they don't help anyone down here. The almost cultish deathwatch hardly seems right to me.

Neither do the social climbers; you know the ones. Churches that always seem to want to expand and get bigger when, sometimes, it is obvious that God has placed them where they are for a reason. It's the "too big for your britches" syndrome. Whenever a pastor starts mentioning extra love offerings for "a new, bigger home for us", I get antsy. When he starts inserting architectural ambitions into his sermons, I start looking for the door, and if you think a pastor hasn't used his pulpit in such a shameless, obvious manner, you've deceived yourself.

I wish you the best in finding a "faith-home" and hope I'll find one too... But know that it's hard for all of us.

DwD

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Posted by carl on 03-03-2004 at13:07:

Yo Dunphy....

If you don't mind driving an hour and a half, I'VE got a couple you can try....

(seriously, too bad y'r not a little farther south, or I'd recommend King of Kings in Manahawkin or one of its various church plants.... I'd like to visit down there just to see it... sounds like God's doing some cool stuff down there....)

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Posted by Pfiagra on 03-03-2004 at13:39:

  TheOoze.com

For those of you who are disenfranchised with your local churches and are seeking more of an honest environment to grow in the Lord, I recommend that you check out TheOoze.com

It was started a few years back by Spencer Burke, a former pastor of mine from my old church. You can check out his webpage here . He's also author of Making Sense of Church

I encourage you to check it out because I think it will resonate with some of you DA/TST fans.

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Posted by carl on 03-03-2004 at13:52:



Pretty cool site. A bit slow, but I liked "THREE STRANDS OF EMERGENT THINKING ABOUT CHURCH" by Paul Fromont; and pretty much anything by Richard Foster resonates with me (so once I can get it to come up I bet this will too)....

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Posted by ™ on 03-04-2004 at03:13:

 



Philip Yancey's thing has been to point out how his faith survived "church".

The back cover of Soul Survivor is a good example:

"Every writer has one main theme, a spoor that he or she keeps sniffing around, tracking, following to it's source. If I had to define my own theme, it would be that of a person who absorbed some of the worst the church had to offer, yet still landed in the loving arms of God.

What allowed me to ransom a personal faith from the damaging effects of religion? The people profiled in this book go a long way toward answering that question."

1. Martin Luther King, Jr.

2. G. K. Chesterton

3. Dr. Paul Brand

4. Dr. Robert Coles

5. Leo Tolstoy and Feodor Dostoevsky

6. Mahatma Gandhi

7. Dr. C. Everett Koop

8. John Donne

9. Annie Dillard

10. Frederick Buechner

11. Shusaku Endo

12. Henri Nouwen

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Posted by Mark on 03-04-2004 at07:59:

 

Well going to a Catholic Church you know it will basically be the same no matter where in the country you are. The main difference you will notice is the personality of the priest. You may have some that are charismatic and good speakers or you may end up with some that could put you to sleep. But you do know that the teaching should be the same in any Catholic Church.

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Posted by Mountain Fan on 03-04-2004 at08:32:

Thanks!

Thanks for mentioning these resources, also the ooze above. I think these will help us.

Thanks also for some of the different perspectives and honesty. The Angels thread in the off-topic discussion area was pretty good too.

I also hoped to hear maybe some of you top favorite lyrics related to the church subject (my biggest reason for posting in the DA general discussion area)... But that's OK, I'm sure we would quickly clog things up and then I may have missed some of this good info!

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Posted by jiminy on 03-04-2004 at08:44:

 

Point well made, Mark
Our Catholic Brothers are consistent everywhere in the nation-

watch out if you attend mass in ,say, Honduras - jk.

there is much comfort in knowing what to expect (so to speak) when worshipping God-

I used to cringe at some of the pentecostal services of the past-
(specially when I brought a friend)
Lord- will THAT be the topic, tonight- or is it going to be a Holy Roll evening- you know
"the leg of the lady next to me grew several inches longer" type thing......

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Posted by sprinklerhead on 03-04-2004 at10:15:

 

quote:

Originally posted by jiminy I used to cringe at some of the pentecostal services of the past- (specially when I brought a friend) Lord- will THAT be the topic, tonight- or is it going to be a Holy Roll evening- you know "the leg of the lady next to me grew several inches longer" type thing......

I can understand reservations when bringing friends to something like this. However, if the lady's leg did grow longer while you were sitting next to her I don't think your friend would have a hard time believing in the power of God.

I, for one, am tired of just talking about God. Jesus said that we would do the things he did. Well, why aren't we? All this talk about God gets tiring and leads few people to Him. Look at how fast things spread in the early church. They were doing the stuff of Jesus. I want to be a part of that.

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Posted by carl on 03-04-2004 at11:34:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Well going to a Catholic Church you know it will basically be the same no matter where in the country you are.... the teaching should be the same in any Catholic Church.

Having observed both you and Jim for quite some time, I question the validity of this statement....

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Posted by dorfsmith on 03-04-2004 at11:48:

 

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Posted by voxrob on 03-05-2004 at18:30:

  RE: Church - A Love Hate Relationship

Well, yeah, I have felt that way more times than I can count -- and many times coming to the point of thinking (and occasionally saying) "why bother". Finding a church where one can "get fed" or thinks is "right on" (i.e., they agree with my interpretations) or where the people are "real" can be a never-ending cycle of disaster that completely feeds our own self-centeredness and pride that attempts to evaluate others (and, at worst, judge them). Real Church is a place where one can go to become united with Christ. And as is the case with the Christian world, when one is united with Christ, one is also united with everyone else who is united with Christ. Maybe our neighbors and brothers and sisters are lacking in some ways because we have not done enough ourselves to help. This is what great saints have generally believed -- they are not only guilty of sins that they've committed but they feel they are also guilty of the sins of people around them -- like Christ, they take on those sins as if it were their own. And maybe we would all be better off doing the same.

If one wants to get "fed", this is the time of year to do it. It's Great Lent, try to find a copy of the Great Canon of St Andrew and pray -- don't read -- that. It's a good attitude adjuster which is probably why I was doing better last week than this.

Regards,

Rob Stevenson

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Posted by sprinklerhead on 03-05-2004 at21:40:

 

To paraphrase JFK - Ask not what your church can do for you but what you can do for your church.

I'm starting to wonder if that is my problem. I think I am expecting too much from my church. I need to participate more instead of being just a spectator.

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Posted by Squidzit on 03-05-2004 at22:06:

  Church - A Love Hate Relationship

Mountain, I had the same problem for a long time. I used to get anoyed at people that I thought were just going through the motions. People that were going for the glory and recognition. I used to get frustrated with people all the time. Then I realized that the same people that I had problems with also had problems with me. Hmmmm, maybe I was not the only on that was right. Novel idea that.

I did the whole "Steeple Chase" thing. Apostolic, UPC, AG. I even tried Presbyterian. I kinda liked that. Very different than any church I had ever been to.

My mom and dad always told me to keep my eyes on God and not the people around me. They said when I was perfect, the others would be also. I finaly got it.

Now I've moved to Ohio and need to find another church. I'd better get my "I want to be a clone" tape out and dust it off. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

Pray for me and my family.

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Posted by PuP on 03-05-2004 at22:10:

 

There's a really nice mosque in Perrysburg.


In case you care, Squid.

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Posted by Squidzit on 03-05-2004 at22:12:

 

I've seen it. It's about a mile from where I live now. But....













....all my turbans got lost in the move.